Re: underwater HT
I never said that molecules were not in a constant state of motion. What should I "see" that I am saying? The energy comes from many many sources, including heat energy from surrounding matter. I don't see what this has to do with the current discussion.
I would like to hear you break down the events that take place as sound travels through water as per your theory much like I did in the post you were replying too. I want to know how displacement, heat, and expansion of volume all take place. I want to know their causes and the order they occur in. I want to hear "Aqueous Sound Transmissions According to John"!
You should look up the definition of "byproduct", dictionaries are standard issue in elementary schools as far as I know.
byproduct: a secondary result, unintended but inevitably produced in doing or producing something else.
...it sounds to me that a byproduct IS a direct result. See this is how it works, the desired result is the transmission of sound through water, the byproduct is a minuscule increase in temperature which results in a microscopic increase in volume. However an increase in volume is not displacement!
If you have a pot of water filled to the brim and you place an object in it, it will overflow. If you take that same pot of water and set it to boil it will overflow. Each time the result was the same, however the means by which the end result was achieved was very very different!
You have nothing to back your claims up but fragmented facts and misguided ideas, but you are to stubborn to give them up, so instead you are talking in circles spouting random facts many of which are completely unrelated in an attempt to appear intelligent. Perhaps this is just out of a hope that if we perceive you as intelligent that we will simply believe you, or maybe it is a way of keeping away the "sharks" Sy was talking about (keeping them out of the conversation). Either way you have not proved anything, and the only thing you have managed to do is alienate yourself on a forum of your peers by the way you have handled many of the situations within this thread.
The main problem is that you keep jumping around instead of remaining on one point, and proving that point! I was on your side at the beginning of this thread, and was open minded enough to forget my views and opinions, but you just talked in circles and proved nothing. I know how sound travels through water John, but do you?
I will not be coming over to your house to watch "Jaws"...
-Justin
MJL21193 said:
I never said that molecules were not in a constant state of motion. What should I "see" that I am saying? The energy comes from many many sources, including heat energy from surrounding matter. I don't see what this has to do with the current discussion.
I would like to hear you break down the events that take place as sound travels through water as per your theory much like I did in the post you were replying too. I want to know how displacement, heat, and expansion of volume all take place. I want to know their causes and the order they occur in. I want to hear "Aqueous Sound Transmissions According to John"!
MJL21193 said:
You should look up the definition of "byproduct", dictionaries are standard issue in elementary schools as far as I know.
byproduct: a secondary result, unintended but inevitably produced in doing or producing something else.
...it sounds to me that a byproduct IS a direct result. See this is how it works, the desired result is the transmission of sound through water, the byproduct is a minuscule increase in temperature which results in a microscopic increase in volume. However an increase in volume is not displacement!
If you have a pot of water filled to the brim and you place an object in it, it will overflow. If you take that same pot of water and set it to boil it will overflow. Each time the result was the same, however the means by which the end result was achieved was very very different!
MJL21193 said:
You have nothing to back your claims up but fragmented facts and misguided ideas, but you are to stubborn to give them up, so instead you are talking in circles spouting random facts many of which are completely unrelated in an attempt to appear intelligent. Perhaps this is just out of a hope that if we perceive you as intelligent that we will simply believe you, or maybe it is a way of keeping away the "sharks" Sy was talking about (keeping them out of the conversation). Either way you have not proved anything, and the only thing you have managed to do is alienate yourself on a forum of your peers by the way you have handled many of the situations within this thread.
The main problem is that you keep jumping around instead of remaining on one point, and proving that point! I was on your side at the beginning of this thread, and was open minded enough to forget my views and opinions, but you just talked in circles and proved nothing. I know how sound travels through water John, but do you?
auplater said:So.. if I want to setup an underwater home theatre in my pool, what are some of the considerations I need to take into account?
Maybe a drysuit if I'm listening and watching between 32F and 39F and a more powerful amp, eh??
For summer months, since the water will be expanding beyond the bounds of the pool at high listening levels, maybe I need some splash guards so the "sound doesn't escape"..???
After all, it could make "Flipper" much more realistic than plain ole 1080p...
John L.
I will not be coming over to your house to watch "Jaws"...
-Justin
scott wurcer said:
You gave a Fahrenheit temp before and that confused me (the rest of the world has moved on to metric). My earlier post assumed the water was frozen solid.
What are you getting at? At 4*C, water is at it's maximum density at standard pressure. Use sound energy to excite the molecules and they will expand the volume. Temperature change, density change, volume change.
scott wurcer said:
??? Are you losing it?
First principles again:
Archimedes gets into his bathtub. A certain amount of water, equivalent to the volume of his body, is moved (dis-placed) from its original position in the tub onto the floor, since both Archimedes and the water cannot take up that space at the same time. So far, so good.
In a second experiment, Archimedes lights a fire under the tub. The water expands, and some of it overflows onto the floor. It has not been displaced (in the scientific sense of the word), since the tub remains entirely full of water.
However, I suspect that you, John, would use the word 'displaced' to describe what happens to the water in the second case. Here is an example of the need to apply strict definition of terms to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.
(A further point - as a good physicist, Archimedes will, no doubt, ensure that the temperature in the first experiment remains constant, so that he can be sure that all the water on the floor is a result of displacement, and not of expansion.)
*****
Not directly related to the above - a thought experiment (or a practical one, if you want to...):
Set up an acoustic transmitter and receiver either end of a vessel filled with water. Observe the transmission of sound from transmitter to receiver, by (according to you) a mechanism whereby the energy input heats the water locally , which expands, and is thus 'displaced' - is this a fair summary?
Now place a cooling coil in the vessel, and use it to extract exacly as much heat as is being added to the system by the transmitter.
What is observed at the receiver? Why?
Archimedes gets into his bathtub. A certain amount of water, equivalent to the volume of his body, is moved (dis-placed) from its original position in the tub onto the floor, since both Archimedes and the water cannot take up that space at the same time. So far, so good.
In a second experiment, Archimedes lights a fire under the tub. The water expands, and some of it overflows onto the floor. It has not been displaced (in the scientific sense of the word), since the tub remains entirely full of water.
However, I suspect that you, John, would use the word 'displaced' to describe what happens to the water in the second case. Here is an example of the need to apply strict definition of terms to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.
(A further point - as a good physicist, Archimedes will, no doubt, ensure that the temperature in the first experiment remains constant, so that he can be sure that all the water on the floor is a result of displacement, and not of expansion.)
*****
Not directly related to the above - a thought experiment (or a practical one, if you want to...):
Set up an acoustic transmitter and receiver either end of a vessel filled with water. Observe the transmission of sound from transmitter to receiver, by (according to you) a mechanism whereby the energy input heats the water locally , which expands, and is thus 'displaced' - is this a fair summary?
Now place a cooling coil in the vessel, and use it to extract exacly as much heat as is being added to the system by the transmitter.
What is observed at the receiver? Why?
the argument holds no water
John,
I think many of us see that water expands with decreasing temperature just above freezing. I think many of us see that the converse of this...water density increases along with temperature in this small range...is also true.
I think many (probably all) of us see that you are unable to resolve another apparent conflict with your compression/temperature/density morphism of the moment.
I think you have been the recipient of a great deal of well intended effort put forth by eminently talented people.
I think your lack of acceptance has...by your own actions...placed you in a position where you can expect less sincere help in the future, maybe when you need it more.
I hope you get what you need. I don't think you will find it here.
John,
I think many of us see that water expands with decreasing temperature just above freezing. I think many of us see that the converse of this...water density increases along with temperature in this small range...is also true.
I think many (probably all) of us see that you are unable to resolve another apparent conflict with your compression/temperature/density morphism of the moment.
I think you have been the recipient of a great deal of well intended effort put forth by eminently talented people.
I think your lack of acceptance has...by your own actions...placed you in a position where you can expect less sincere help in the future, maybe when you need it more.
I hope you get what you need. I don't think you will find it here.
dnsey said:
Yes, you have it in a nutshell. The same result - the water overflow is happening by (almost, use your imagination) the same mechanism - molecules are pushed out of the way and the volume that the water occupied increases. I know, in the first you are adding mass and the second you are adding energy but the end result is the same - displacement.
My use of "displacement" has be used in a specific context, and I thought that there would be no confusion. As usual, I was wrong.
dnsey said:
The cooling coil is performing a separate task and will have no effect on the transmission of sound. The same thing is happening - displacement and volume increase from the sound energy.
All that the cooling coil is doing is drawing the same amount of energy out of the water. This does not interfere with the first process.
The end result is no volume expansion and no temperature change. Sound was still transmitted though.
Re: Re: underwater HT
It's the very definition of what I'm saying! When energy is used in a medium heat is produced. This heat is produced by the increased molecular movement. It doesn't matter where the energy comes from as long as it is kinetic. When a medium or any other object heats up, it expands. This is the displacement I am talking about. This is the expansion that I'm talking about.
I'm working on it...
despotic931 said:
It's the very definition of what I'm saying! When energy is used in a medium heat is produced. This heat is produced by the increased molecular movement. It doesn't matter where the energy comes from as long as it is kinetic. When a medium or any other object heats up, it expands. This is the displacement I am talking about. This is the expansion that I'm talking about.
despotic931 said:
I'm working on it...
MJL21193 said:
What are you getting at? At 4*C, water is at it's maximum density at standard pressure. Use sound energy to excite the molecules and they will expand the volume. Temperature change, density change, volume change.
??? Are you losing it?
NO!
At 4C there is no change in density with temperature in fact at 3.5 C the density goes the other way. Average back and forth around 4 C and there is no net change in density no volume change. Asymptote, slope of zero remember?
OK look at it another way. There is a dramatic difference in the rate of change in density with temperature around 4 C, in fact it changes sign. There are no corresponding changes in the propagation properties of sound.
Heat flow obeys diffusion laws. The time constant determined by the thermal capacity and thermal resistance are orders of magnitude less than the speed of sound propagation (in general). The solutions to diffusion equations also do not support traveling waves.
Can you say "Topper"?
This looks to be a variation on the "Topper Syndrome",
as in "That's nothing, lemme tell you about MY STORY..."
http://7akifadi.com/2007/06/26/the-topper-syndrome/
mangled into the format of "whatever you say or demonstrate to the contrary or to refute what I say, I'll re-define whatever you thought I was saying to something with a new set of rules, thus proving whatever you said or demonstrated is/was irrelevent to whatever it is that you thought I meant>
Justin...
Not even if I supply a titanium shark cage???
John L.
This looks to be a variation on the "Topper Syndrome",
as in "That's nothing, lemme tell you about MY STORY..."
http://7akifadi.com/2007/06/26/the-topper-syndrome/
mangled into the format of "whatever you say or demonstrate to the contrary or to refute what I say, I'll re-define whatever you thought I was saying to something with a new set of rules, thus proving whatever you said or demonstrated is/was irrelevent to whatever it is that you thought I meant>
Justin...
Not even if I supply a titanium shark cage???
John L.
Re: Re: the argument holds no water
He was talking about the small range from 0-4 degrees C. As water warms from say 2C to 3C, it's density actually increases toward the maximum at 4C. Since this would be a contraction in volume, it seems to preclude sound propagation in this narrow range if that propagation is (as I believe you suggest) dependent upon molecules moving, creating heat, and causing expansion.
MJL21193 said:
He was talking about the small range from 0-4 degrees C. As water warms from say 2C to 3C, it's density actually increases toward the maximum at 4C. Since this would be a contraction in volume, it seems to preclude sound propagation in this narrow range if that propagation is (as I believe you suggest) dependent upon molecules moving, creating heat, and causing expansion.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Re: Can you say "Topper"?
My personal favorite:
auplater said:
My personal favorite:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Re: Can you say "Topper"?
Ummm, no, they are not the same mechanism...
When Archimedes performs his first experiment his body is displacing the water. The actual volume of the water is staying the same, his body is just pushing some of it out of the tub. There may be a microscopic volume change due to the heat that is produced from the friction of the water molecules moving, but this amount of heat is so very very small, this is null and void from the equation and has nothing to do with what we are showing with this experiment. If moving water produced that much heat then the oceans, rivers, and streams would be kinda warm don't you think?
When Archimedes performs his second experiment the water molecules heat up and move fast and faster pushing each other farther and farther apart from one another. This is expansion and it causes an actual physical increase in the volume of the water, and we will note for a later use that the mass will remain the same. There is nothing moving the water out of the way, and pushing it out of the tub other than the water molecules itself. It's not an increase in water molecules but rather a decrease in density. Come on John, this is something I learned in elementary school, back when you were theorizing transmission characteristics of sound waves in "non-compressible" fluids!
No displacement is taking place in the above statement. Unless you are saying it is something displacing the water which causes the water molecules to have to move, thereby causing friction, which then will produce the heat. Displacement can play the role of being the source of the kinetic energy, but thats where it's role ends. It's cause and effect, just like we've talked about before, remember?
Lets go back to our trusty dictionary...
Expansion
Pronunciation: \ik-ˈspan(t)-shən\
Function: noun
1: expanse (latin root word)
2: the act or process of expanding <territorial expansion> <economic expansion> <expansion of the universe>
3: the quality or state of being expanded
4: the increase in volume of working fluid (as steam) in an engine cylinder after cutoff or in an internal combustion engine after explosion
5 a: an expanded part b: something that results from an act of expanding <the book is an expansion of a lecture series>
6: the result of carrying out an indicated mathematical operation : the expression of a function in the form of a series
and then...
Displacement
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)dis-ˈplā-smənt, di-ˈsplā-\
Function: noun
1: the act or process of displacing : the state of being displaced
2 a: the volume or weight of a fluid (as water) displaced by a floating body (as a ship) of equal weight b: the difference between the initial position of something (as a body or geometric figure) and any later position c: the volume displaced by a piston (as in a pump or an engine) in a single stroke; also : the total volume so displaced by all the pistons in an internal combustion engine (as in an automobile)
3 a: the redirection of an emotion or impulse from its original object (as an idea or person) to another b: the substitution of another form of behavior for what is usual or expected especially when the usual response is nonadaptive —called also displacement activity, displacement behavior
I was going to edit out the pronunciation key, but at this point who knows what information you need John...
Alright I will consider it, but only if you explain to me how you plan to keep the popcorn from getting soggy!
- Justin
MJL21193 said:
Ummm, no, they are not the same mechanism...
When Archimedes performs his first experiment his body is displacing the water. The actual volume of the water is staying the same, his body is just pushing some of it out of the tub. There may be a microscopic volume change due to the heat that is produced from the friction of the water molecules moving, but this amount of heat is so very very small, this is null and void from the equation and has nothing to do with what we are showing with this experiment. If moving water produced that much heat then the oceans, rivers, and streams would be kinda warm don't you think?
When Archimedes performs his second experiment the water molecules heat up and move fast and faster pushing each other farther and farther apart from one another. This is expansion and it causes an actual physical increase in the volume of the water, and we will note for a later use that the mass will remain the same. There is nothing moving the water out of the way, and pushing it out of the tub other than the water molecules itself. It's not an increase in water molecules but rather a decrease in density. Come on John, this is something I learned in elementary school, back when you were theorizing transmission characteristics of sound waves in "non-compressible" fluids!
MJL21193 said:
No displacement is taking place in the above statement. Unless you are saying it is something displacing the water which causes the water molecules to have to move, thereby causing friction, which then will produce the heat. Displacement can play the role of being the source of the kinetic energy, but thats where it's role ends. It's cause and effect, just like we've talked about before, remember?
Lets go back to our trusty dictionary...
Expansion
Pronunciation: \ik-ˈspan(t)-shən\
Function: noun
1: expanse (latin root word)
2: the act or process of expanding <territorial expansion> <economic expansion> <expansion of the universe>
3: the quality or state of being expanded
4: the increase in volume of working fluid (as steam) in an engine cylinder after cutoff or in an internal combustion engine after explosion
5 a: an expanded part b: something that results from an act of expanding <the book is an expansion of a lecture series>
6: the result of carrying out an indicated mathematical operation : the expression of a function in the form of a series
and then...
Displacement
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)dis-ˈplā-smənt, di-ˈsplā-\
Function: noun
1: the act or process of displacing : the state of being displaced
2 a: the volume or weight of a fluid (as water) displaced by a floating body (as a ship) of equal weight b: the difference between the initial position of something (as a body or geometric figure) and any later position c: the volume displaced by a piston (as in a pump or an engine) in a single stroke; also : the total volume so displaced by all the pistons in an internal combustion engine (as in an automobile)
3 a: the redirection of an emotion or impulse from its original object (as an idea or person) to another b: the substitution of another form of behavior for what is usual or expected especially when the usual response is nonadaptive —called also displacement activity, displacement behavior
I was going to edit out the pronunciation key, but at this point who knows what information you need John...
auplater said:
Alright I will consider it, but only if you explain to me how you plan to keep the popcorn from getting soggy!
- Justin
lot's of mis-information around, I guess
While researching my next HT project, I ran across this:
http://www.groovedwhale.com/lwlistentxt.html
Note the first paragraph, John...
"SOUND AND HEARING :::
Sound is a physical phenomenon, produced when an object vibrates and generates a series of pressure waves that alternately compress and decompress the molecules of the air, water, or solid that the waves travel through.
These cycles of compression and rarefaction can be described in terms of their frequency, the number of wave cycles per second, expressed in Hertz."
Further down..
"At some point back in our ancestral village, we realized the benefits of combining our efforts in a group - such as for hunting or war. With the complicated teamwork required for these activities arose the need to communicate in precise and logical terms.
While a grunt and a head nod might suffice for directions to a watering hole, instructions for building a well required more explanation.
In response to these needs we created a system that depended as much on our vocal cord flexibility as it did on our mental abilities. Spoken language incorporated a much higher level of symbolism than grrr for bear and bzzzz for bee by developing a complex code of relationships between sound, objects and concepts - allowing us to communicate with precision and describe with accuracy."
You've got your work cut out for you, re-training all of those mis-informed, I guess...
Cheers!
John L.
While researching my next HT project, I ran across this:
http://www.groovedwhale.com/lwlistentxt.html
Note the first paragraph, John...
"SOUND AND HEARING :::
Sound is a physical phenomenon, produced when an object vibrates and generates a series of pressure waves that alternately compress and decompress the molecules of the air, water, or solid that the waves travel through.
These cycles of compression and rarefaction can be described in terms of their frequency, the number of wave cycles per second, expressed in Hertz."
Further down..
"At some point back in our ancestral village, we realized the benefits of combining our efforts in a group - such as for hunting or war. With the complicated teamwork required for these activities arose the need to communicate in precise and logical terms.
While a grunt and a head nod might suffice for directions to a watering hole, instructions for building a well required more explanation.
In response to these needs we created a system that depended as much on our vocal cord flexibility as it did on our mental abilities. Spoken language incorporated a much higher level of symbolism than grrr for bear and bzzzz for bee by developing a complex code of relationships between sound, objects and concepts - allowing us to communicate with precision and describe with accuracy."
You've got your work cut out for you, re-training all of those mis-informed, I guess...
Cheers!
John L.
Re: Re: Re: the argument holds no water
Yes, well this is a fly in the ointment.
I must concede that this seems like the kind of conclusive proof that I was lacking.
Thanks to Scott for introducing it.
I stand corrected.
Gentlemen, it's been fun. Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers, but it was all in the name of better understanding.
I learned much during this, not just with regards to the way sound travels.
As promised: I was wrong.
scott wurcer said:
amiklos said:
Yes, well this is a fly in the ointment.
I must concede that this seems like the kind of conclusive proof that I was lacking.
Thanks to Scott for introducing it.
I stand corrected.
Gentlemen, it's been fun. Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers, but it was all in the name of better understanding.
I learned much during this, not just with regards to the way sound travels.
As promised: I was wrong.
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