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Old 12th September 2008, 12:26 PM   #411
amiklos is offline amiklos  United States
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Default Re: Can you say "Topper"?

Quote:
Originally posted by auplater
This looks to be a variation on the "Topper Syndrome",

as in "That's nothing, lemme tell you about MY STORY..."
My personal favorite:




Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 12th September 2008, 12:29 PM   #412
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Default Re: Re: the argument holds no water

Quote:
Originally posted by MJL21193



You sure about the above?

Yes

Doesn't water expand below freezing? We know it expands above freezing, everything expands with increased temperature.

No

Wouldn't the density decrease as the volume expands?
Maybe a picture would help.

EDIT - sorry to repeat the above (better picture .
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Old 12th September 2008, 12:39 PM   #413
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Now that's daft!
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Old 12th September 2008, 12:45 PM   #414
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Default dense(ity) .. or not

Gee, Scott, there are soooo many 9's in those numbers, I'll bet they'd make a superior interconnect cable... if we can only figur' out how to make them conduct....

Oh, I'm sorry, this isn't a cable thread...

John L.
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Old 12th September 2008, 12:49 PM   #415
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Default Re: Can you say "Topper"?

Quote:
Originally posted by MJL21193
Yes, you have it in a nutshell. The same result - the water overflow is happening by (almost, use your imagination) the same mechanism - molecules are pushed out of the way and the volume that the water occupied increases. I know, in the first you are adding mass and the second you are adding energy but the end result is the same - displacement.
My use of "displacement" has be used in a specific context, and I thought that there would be no confusion. As usual, I was wrong.
Ummm, no, they are not the same mechanism...

When Archimedes performs his first experiment his body is displacing the water. The actual volume of the water is staying the same, his body is just pushing some of it out of the tub. There may be a microscopic volume change due to the heat that is produced from the friction of the water molecules moving, but this amount of heat is so very very small, this is null and void from the equation and has nothing to do with what we are showing with this experiment. If moving water produced that much heat then the oceans, rivers, and streams would be kinda warm don't you think?

When Archimedes performs his second experiment the water molecules heat up and move fast and faster pushing each other farther and farther apart from one another. This is expansion and it causes an actual physical increase in the volume of the water, and we will note for a later use that the mass will remain the same. There is nothing moving the water out of the way, and pushing it out of the tub other than the water molecules itself. It's not an increase in water molecules but rather a decrease in density. Come on John, this is something I learned in elementary school, back when you were theorizing transmission characteristics of sound waves in "non-compressible" fluids!


Quote:
Originally posted by MJL21193
It's the very definition of what I'm saying! When energy is used in a medium heat is produced. This heat is produced by the increased molecular movement. It doesn't matter where the energy comes from as long as it is kinetic. When a medium or any other object heats up, it expands. This is the displacement I am talking about. This is the expansion that I'm talking about.
No displacement is taking place in the above statement. Unless you are saying it is something displacing the water which causes the water molecules to have to move, thereby causing friction, which then will produce the heat. Displacement can play the role of being the source of the kinetic energy, but thats where it's role ends. It's cause and effect, just like we've talked about before, remember?

Lets go back to our trusty dictionary...

Expansion
Pronunciation: \ik-ˈspan(t)-shən\
Function: noun
1: expanse (latin root word)
2: the act or process of expanding <territorial expansion> <economic expansion> <expansion of the universe>
3: the quality or state of being expanded
4: the increase in volume of working fluid (as steam) in an engine cylinder after cutoff or in an internal combustion engine after explosion
5 a: an expanded part b: something that results from an act of expanding <the book is an expansion of a lecture series>
6: the result of carrying out an indicated mathematical operation : the expression of a function in the form of a series

and then...

Displacement
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)dis-ˈplā-smənt, di-ˈsplā-\
Function: noun
1: the act or process of displacing : the state of being displaced
2 a: the volume or weight of a fluid (as water) displaced by a floating body (as a ship) of equal weight b: the difference between the initial position of something (as a body or geometric figure) and any later position c: the volume displaced by a piston (as in a pump or an engine) in a single stroke; also : the total volume so displaced by all the pistons in an internal combustion engine (as in an automobile)
3 a: the redirection of an emotion or impulse from its original object (as an idea or person) to another b: the substitution of another form of behavior for what is usual or expected especially when the usual response is nonadaptive —called also displacement activity, displacement behavior

I was going to edit out the pronunciation key, but at this point who knows what information you need John...

Quote:
Originally posted by auplater


Not even if I supply a titanium shark cage???

John L.
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Old 12th September 2008, 01:29 PM   #416
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Default lot's of mis-information around, I guess

While researching my next HT project, I ran across this:

http://www.groovedwhale.com/lwlistentxt.html

Note the first paragraph, John...

"SOUND AND HEARING :::
Sound is a physical phenomenon, produced when an object vibrates and generates a series of pressure waves that alternately compress and decompress the molecules of the air, water, or solid that the waves travel through.

These cycles of compression and rarefaction can be described in terms of their frequency, the number of wave cycles per second, expressed in Hertz."

Further down..

"At some point back in our ancestral village, we realized the benefits of combining our efforts in a group - such as for hunting or war. With the complicated teamwork required for these activities arose the need to communicate in precise and logical terms.

While a grunt and a head nod might suffice for directions to a watering hole, instructions for building a well required more explanation.
In response to these needs we created a system that depended as much on our vocal cord flexibility as it did on our mental abilities. Spoken language incorporated a much higher level of symbolism than grrr for bear and bzzzz for bee by developing a complex code of relationships between sound, objects and concepts - allowing us to communicate with precision and describe with accuracy."


You've got your work cut out for you, re-training all of those mis-informed, I guess...

Cheers!

John L.
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Old 12th September 2008, 01:38 PM   #417
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Default Re: Re: Re: the argument holds no water

Quote:
Originally posted by scott wurcer


At 4C there is no change in density with temperature in fact at 3.5 C the density goes the other way. Average back and forth around 4 C and there is no net change in density no volume change. Asymptote, slope of zero remember?
no corresponding changes in the propagation properties of sound.

Quote:
Originally posted by amiklos


He was talking about the small range from 0-4 degrees C. As water warms from say 2C to 3C, it's density actually increases toward the maximum at 4C.

Yes, well this is a fly in the ointment.
I must concede that this seems like the kind of conclusive proof that I was lacking.
Thanks to Scott for introducing it.
I stand corrected.

Gentlemen, it's been fun. Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers, but it was all in the name of better understanding.
I learned much during this, not just with regards to the way sound travels.
As promised: I was wrong.
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Old 12th September 2008, 03:59 PM   #418
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And I'm sorry I likened this discussion to a Gracie Allen comedy routine, I apologize for that.
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Old 12th September 2008, 04:01 PM   #419
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Let this rest gentlemen. No digs or I told you so's. Fair enough?
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Old 12th September 2008, 04:30 PM   #420
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by scott wurcer
And I'm sorry I likened this discussion to a Gracie Allen comedy routine, I apologize for that.
Actually, it was for a while, but John handled it quite... uhhhh.... gracefully.

(Sorry, Cal, I can never resist a one-liner)
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