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Old 1st July 2008, 02:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by wakibaki
Since the amount of energy recovered on condensation is always the same, anything else would mean you could build a perpetual motion machine.
no. it's not. please see "Carnot engine". (seriously this is freshman thermo)

The energy recovered in the cycle can never exceed the energy in, but it can be made increasingly more efficient based on the temperature inside the cycle. If this lowers the boiling pt of water, it makes it more effiecient, as you don't have to heat the water to 100 C.

Quote:
Originally posted by wakibaki
If you've got a point to make, make it on your own account instead of trying to ricochet off my contribution.

w
I was using your "point" as a reference of misunderstanding, which apparently continues blindly.

I would also like to see the actual data and experimental set-up. I am neither accepting or denying this claim, but find the claim unique and possibly a boon for such things as desalination.
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Old 1st July 2008, 04:28 PM   #12
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Originally posted by shallbehealed

no. it's not
If you have an argument to advance, make it in entirety.

Otherwise butt out...
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Old 1st July 2008, 04:49 PM   #13
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Not nice Waki. He gave you something to research.
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Old 1st July 2008, 04:54 PM   #14
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Seriously, calm down. This is just a lilliputian version of a pin fin heatsink, no?

http://www.coolinnovations.com

http://www.coolinnovations.com/techn...s_articles.php

Not too hard to understand, and certainly not worth arguing about. Were we at a Gordon Conference and someone said that cold fusion had, indeed, been generated in their bath tub...maybe we could throw some flags. Forget the writer...look at the principles.

To measure this effect? Propose that you take a 12"x12" CSA vessel with a 0.25" thick bottom plate made of solid copper. Apply heat in your method of choice (propane, alcohol, jet fuel) to one side of the plate. Fill the vessel (other side of the plate) with a known volume of DI water. Measure the water temp until it hits boiling point at given pressure (Sea Level or Mt. Fuji). Calculate fuel expended and energy. Now, do the same with an application of said copper nano rods on the surface. (Height is negligible if they are truly "nano".)

Just a guess at an easy way to check this out.

If the energy expended is the same, your article is a hoax. If not, you have yourself a cool application and a heated (no pun intended) debate on an audio forum.

Peace.

Edited for clarity.
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Old 1st July 2008, 05:15 PM   #15
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Waki's last post removed. Let's move on.
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Old 1st July 2008, 05:23 PM   #16
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They are talking about heat flux and the ability of heat to flow from the metal to the water. they characterize the efficiency by measuring the temp difference between the wall and the liquid (Tw-Tsat) and the measured heat flux.

They also reported that in subsequent tests using the same surface, there was degradation in the efficiency, which they called aging behaviour and attributed it to oxidation and the accumulation of impurities.

This statement within the article..""If you can boil water using 30 times less energy, that’s 30 times less energy you have to pay for,” he said. . ""....while in itself is accurate, implies that they required 30 times less energy to vaporize the water, and that is NOT what the origional scientific paper said.

Cheers, John
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Old 1st July 2008, 07:16 PM   #17
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Aaron, I don't follow your example here. Your example (a vessel) is a closed system (i.e., it's not a continuous stream of water flowing past), so the energy to boil the water is independent of the surface, it's a constant which just depends on the mass of water.

Now in a heatsink or similar application where there is a continuous flow of fresh "recipient" media, indeed increasing the surface area will increase the amount of energy dissipated per unit time for exactly the reasons that John cites. There's nothing mysterious about that nor any major breakthrough. If practical, it's just an evolutionary step, though nothing wrong with evolutionary steps!
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Old 1st July 2008, 07:20 PM   #18
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Ahh, an electrical analogy is in order. Aaron's vessel is a capacitance, the temperature difference is potential (voltage), and between them is a resistance comprising the thermal conductivity of the boundary medium and the interfacial thermal resistances. It's easy to see that the capacitor will charge to the full voltage regardless of the resistance- the rate at which it does so may be altered, though.

A flow system would be more analogous to a current sink than a capacitor, so it can be seen that the thermal resistances are critical to the total energy input per unit time.
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