Re: I must be deaf...
You are not deaf but we all have different degrees of hearing depending on genetics, age and our exposure to damaging noise.
Only last night I was corresponding with a fellow audio DIYer who is also a professional pianist. He was telling me
"Yes, I can discern pitch very well, actually I have what is called absolute pitch which is the ability to determine almost instantly whether an instrument is playing at a pitch 'A' equals 444Hz or 440Hz (apparently one person in 10,000 has this). Obviously included with this is the ability to name a note instantly from hearing it alone. It is often more of a pain in the *** than it is useful! "
So when somebody says that they can hear something in a hi-fi system that you can't, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are telling a porkie.
JAZZ2250 said:You guys are amazing. I should not be able to tell the differences in sonics depending on how the vibration is treated. I must be deaf like many others.
You are not deaf but we all have different degrees of hearing depending on genetics, age and our exposure to damaging noise.
Only last night I was corresponding with a fellow audio DIYer who is also a professional pianist. He was telling me
"Yes, I can discern pitch very well, actually I have what is called absolute pitch which is the ability to determine almost instantly whether an instrument is playing at a pitch 'A' equals 444Hz or 440Hz (apparently one person in 10,000 has this). Obviously included with this is the ability to name a note instantly from hearing it alone. It is often more of a pain in the *** than it is useful! "
So when somebody says that they can hear something in a hi-fi system that you can't, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are telling a porkie.
Re: Re: I must be deaf...
We all also have brains which have a tendency to over-detect and cause us to perceive differences even when there may not have been any at all or are too low in level to even get past our auditory periphery (i.e. too low to cause any nerve impulses from the ear to the brain).
(Amusing anecodte snipped)
Nor does it necessarily mean that there was anything there to actually be heard in the first place.
Just as some people are more sensitive to discerning actual differences, so too are some people more susceptible to subjectively perceiving differences when there are no actual differences.
However since our subjective perceptions are no less real to us if they're caused by actual audible differences or psychology, it's perfectly fine to go by those perceived differences when it comes to choosing our particular preferences.
se
Nuuk said:
We all also have brains which have a tendency to over-detect and cause us to perceive differences even when there may not have been any at all or are too low in level to even get past our auditory periphery (i.e. too low to cause any nerve impulses from the ear to the brain).
(Amusing anecodte snipped)
Nor does it necessarily mean that there was anything there to actually be heard in the first place.
Just as some people are more sensitive to discerning actual differences, so too are some people more susceptible to subjectively perceiving differences when there are no actual differences.
However since our subjective perceptions are no less real to us if they're caused by actual audible differences or psychology, it's perfectly fine to go by those perceived differences when it comes to choosing our particular preferences.
se
They Are Free - You Have Nothing To Lose !
Hi DavidB,
Perfectly valid question.
I am finding that using valvesprings to be very nicely beneficial in all the applications that I have tried them.
Steve says that they are very stiff, but they are not as stiff as you might suppose.
In the application under equipment, I am finding that whilst the surface they are resting on may be vibrating like crazy, the item (amplifier- heavy, or cdp - heavy) isolated or floated by springs is just about perfectly non vibrating, and this tiny amount of vibration is several orders of magnitude less than when solid mounted.
I find that the net result of using valve springs is that the item sounds 'free', and hardness in sound is eliminated.
I find that spikes cause perfect coupling from the supporting surface to the item supported, and this causes definate resonant modes, and whilst the nature of these modes can be altered by positioning of the spikes and the material from which the spikes are made, these mechanical resonances can be strongly and adversely audible in the output sound.
Under speakers the isolation effect is similar - the box is floated and allowed to behave in its own modes, and without additionally excited modes caused by hard mounting.
I find that valve springs are extremely non lossy - for example if I give my (tall narrow) speakers a nugde they will continue to rock gently and slowly (1 Hz or so) and for SEVERAL minutes.
The sonic manifestation of this is that bass goes lower and smoother, and hard low/mid sounds are banished, and overall efficiency goes up quite markedly.
Similaly the resonant frequency under equipment is only a few hertz.
Under a Marshall guitar amp, the effect of this isolation is quite dramatic - overall much cleaner and easier on the ear (mine and the guitarist's), more nuance detail is clearly audible, and a couple of nasty resonances are eliminated.
Valve springs are ground perfectly flat and square top and bottom, and this makes them very convenient.
The mass of the springs is insignificant compared to the supporting shelf or item supported and no resonant modes within the spring itself are evident.
If you guys try this, I expect that you will find it to be of significant sonic benefit.
Eric.
Hi DavidB,
Perfectly valid question.
I am finding that using valvesprings to be very nicely beneficial in all the applications that I have tried them.
Steve says that they are very stiff, but they are not as stiff as you might suppose.
In the application under equipment, I am finding that whilst the surface they are resting on may be vibrating like crazy, the item (amplifier- heavy, or cdp - heavy) isolated or floated by springs is just about perfectly non vibrating, and this tiny amount of vibration is several orders of magnitude less than when solid mounted.
I find that the net result of using valve springs is that the item sounds 'free', and hardness in sound is eliminated.
I find that spikes cause perfect coupling from the supporting surface to the item supported, and this causes definate resonant modes, and whilst the nature of these modes can be altered by positioning of the spikes and the material from which the spikes are made, these mechanical resonances can be strongly and adversely audible in the output sound.
Under speakers the isolation effect is similar - the box is floated and allowed to behave in its own modes, and without additionally excited modes caused by hard mounting.
I find that valve springs are extremely non lossy - for example if I give my (tall narrow) speakers a nugde they will continue to rock gently and slowly (1 Hz or so) and for SEVERAL minutes.
The sonic manifestation of this is that bass goes lower and smoother, and hard low/mid sounds are banished, and overall efficiency goes up quite markedly.
Similaly the resonant frequency under equipment is only a few hertz.
Under a Marshall guitar amp, the effect of this isolation is quite dramatic - overall much cleaner and easier on the ear (mine and the guitarist's), more nuance detail is clearly audible, and a couple of nasty resonances are eliminated.
Valve springs are ground perfectly flat and square top and bottom, and this makes them very convenient.
The mass of the springs is insignificant compared to the supporting shelf or item supported and no resonant modes within the spring itself are evident.
If you guys try this, I expect that you will find it to be of significant sonic benefit.
Eric.
jam said:
Well, depending what you're trying to accomplish, springs should be chosen to give you the lowest resonant frequency possible. It's only above the resonant frequency that springs begin to isolate.
Mass loading only lowers your resonant frequency by the way. So unless you're able to get the resonant frequency well below the audio band, you may end up making things even more susceptible to vibration.
If you start out with a rather high resonant frequency, it may be better to simply damp the resonance than add mass and lower the resonant frequency.
There's more acoustical energy in the lower audio range than at the higher end so adding mass can ultimately result in greater vibration. Whereas at higher frequencies, there's not only less energy to begin with, but resonances are much more easily damped at high frequencies.
se
jam said:
Yes, I know what you mean.
I'm just amusing myself over the fact that while it seems everyone agrees that vibration in your components is bad, half the "solutions" offered up actually work to keep the vibration in the components longer than otherwise.
So apparently, some people ultimately prefer vibration. And knowing that, one can take more appropriate measures to make sure that their components vibrate more than they would otherwise or by using other solutions.
se
Free And Easy...
Damm I lost a long post somehow, anyway.
Hi Peter,
I find much in the manner that ported cabinets cause an apparent bass increase at the expense of very low bass, spikes cause a (tuneable) resonant augmentation (under equipment or cabinets) at the expense of (real) low bass.
I much prefer natural low lows, and dislike resonance conditions, and springs give me this free and natural sounding low low bass.
Just go to your local auto-wreckers and cadge some (3 for each item, speakers and electronics) - they will probably throw them at you !.
Try 'em.
Eric.
Damm I lost a long post somehow, anyway.
Hi Peter,
I find much in the manner that ported cabinets cause an apparent bass increase at the expense of very low bass, spikes cause a (tuneable) resonant augmentation (under equipment or cabinets) at the expense of (real) low bass.
I much prefer natural low lows, and dislike resonance conditions, and springs give me this free and natural sounding low low bass.
Just go to your local auto-wreckers and cadge some (3 for each item, speakers and electronics) - they will probably throw them at you !.
Try 'em.
Eric.
Re: "1 Hz or So..."
That rocking motion you described previously with regard to your loudspeakers isn't exemplary of the resonant behavior of the spring/mass system you've created.
A better means would be to push the loudspeakers down, compressing the springs and then releasing it. Or better still, apply an impulse by striking the top of the speakers with a rubber mallet.
And the resonant frequency will depend on the mass of the component that's resting on the springs. The more massive (heavier) the component, the lower the resonant frequency. The lither the component, the higher the resonant frequency.
Most components don't weigh as much as a floorstanding loudspeaker.
se
mrfeedback said:
That rocking motion you described previously with regard to your loudspeakers isn't exemplary of the resonant behavior of the spring/mass system you've created.
A better means would be to push the loudspeakers down, compressing the springs and then releasing it. Or better still, apply an impulse by striking the top of the speakers with a rubber mallet.
And the resonant frequency will depend on the mass of the component that's resting on the springs. The more massive (heavier) the component, the lower the resonant frequency. The lither the component, the higher the resonant frequency.
Most components don't weigh as much as a floorstanding loudspeaker.
se
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