digital audio for mice - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > General Interest > Everything Else

Everything Else Anything related to audio / video / electronics etc) BUT remember- we have many new forums where your thread may now fit! .... Parts, Equipment & Tools, Construction Tips, Software Tools......

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th February 2008, 04:24 AM   #1
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bavarian Forest
Default digital audio for mice

Hello all!

Assume there is a mouse that wants high quality digital audio. Its hearing range is from 500Hz to 120Khz, two octaves less than humans. Its neurons and receptor cells donīt switch faster, and it has much less of them. But every expert the mouse asked told it that it needs six times the amount of audio data than humans to be satisfied.

Is this a contradiction?




Oliver
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2008, 02:23 PM   #2
diyAudio Member
 
Speedskater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
If the only frequency that humans could hear was 20 KHz and the only frequency that mice could hear was 120 KHz. Then the mouse would need 6 times the "digital" data. It's all about sample rate.
__________________
Kevin
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2008, 04:06 AM   #3
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bavarian Forest
If both only heard these frequencies, the amount of data would be the same, because one would only have to encode the phase and amplitude information fast enough for the neurons.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2008, 11:16 AM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
I_Forgot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Phoenix, Az.
What does "six times the amount of audio data" mean? That is a hand-waving, smoke-and-mirrors, totally meaningless term if I ever heard one. Sounds like something that someone in an audio marketing dept would say, not someone steeped in the scientific method. Are you reading hifi marketing literature for some sort of tweeter?

I_F
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2008, 12:20 PM   #5
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bavarian Forest
So what will be your advice for the mouse?
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2008, 12:43 PM   #6
Nordic is offline Nordic  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Nordic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Click the image to open in full size.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2008, 01:40 PM   #7
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bavarian Forest
The mouse isnīt amused.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2008, 12:35 PM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
Aud1073cH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Send a message via AIM to Aud1073cH
Default a scientific approach?

Here's my attempt at the scientific approach.

So how much data do humans need to hear up to 20kHz, and how much would said mouse need at 120kHz? Is it six times?

For this argument it will be given that the audio will be stored in a PCM format. Also, the bit depth will remain at a constant 16 bits. When scaling, one byte shall be eight bits. One kilobyte (kB) shall be 1,024bytes. One megabyte (MB) shall be 1,024kilobytes.

The Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem states:

If a function f(t) contains no frequencies higher than W cps, it is completely determined by giving its ordinates at a series of points spaced 1/(2W) seconds apart.

In short, the highest frequency which can be accurately represented is less than one-half of the sampling rate. So for this argument, the sampling frequency will be twice the audio frequency.

For humans hearing at 20kHz, we will need a sample rate of 40kHz. (*I know CDs are 44.1kHz, this is just for this argument.)
so 16bits*40,000samples/sec =704,000bits/sec
multiplying by 60seconds/min = 42,240,000bits/min = 5,280,000bytes/min = 5156.25kB/min = 5.035400390625MB/min

or roughly 5MB/min (per channel of audio) -10MB/min stereo

The mouse hearing at 120kHz, we will need a sample rate of 240kHz.
so 16bits*120,000samples/sec =3,840,000bits/sec
multiplying by 60seconds/min = 230,400,000bits/min = 28,800,000bytes/min = 28,125kB/min = 27.4658203125MB/min

or roughly 27.5MB/min (per channel of audio) -55Meg/min stereo

So we would need about 5.5 (about six, the original estimate) times more data for the same length of audio at 120kHz than we do at 20kHz. QED quod erat demonstrandum


I don't know what the difference would be if we went to a direct stream digital (DSD) pulse-density modulation, one bit audio solution. Standard DSD (SA-CD) at a 1bit sample depth with 2.8224MHz sample rate (64x oversampling 44.1kHz) takes the same amount of data as a standard PCM CD, and claims a frequency responce of 100kHz with that rate. This mouse would need to move up to 128 or 256 times oversampling, but I don't know the frequency response gained with those rates.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2008, 05:11 PM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Speedskater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Typo error:
so 16bits*120,000samples/sec =3,840,000bits/sec
Should be:
so 16bits*240,000samples/sec =3,840,000bits/sec

Math error:
so 16bits*40,000samples/sec =704,000bits/sec
Should be:
so 16bits*40,000samples/sec =640,000bits/sec

I'll leave the conclusion correction to the OP.
__________________
Kevin
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2008, 06:47 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
neutron7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
actually mice only live about 2 years, so mice years are about 1 / 40th of human years

that means mice seconds are also shorter. and 120khz is only 3 Kmicehertz.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Digital audio from IDE Leolabs Digital Source 185 27th May 2008 02:53 AM
What speakers would mice build? el`Ol Everything Else 3 27th October 2007 03:41 AM
Digital Amp for Car Audio? Livin Class D 9 1st July 2007 02:13 AM
DVD Digital audio out Ken Dangerfield Digital Source 6 19th March 2004 05:07 PM
Digital Audio Pot blu_line Solid State 13 16th January 2002 12:30 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:46 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Đ1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2