Q: DuPont Mylar Film for ESLs...

[Rarkov]

Hi,
Thanks for your reply Mark. I've been looking at your website and I'm sourcing the parts for your 'safer' bias supply. Finding parts in the UK is difficult but there is a place is Germany (hivolt.de) that does them. I've asked for a quote for the G-40.

I went to the Audio Circuit yesterday because I like reading through texts about unusual speakers (such as ion tweeters). One of the circuits I went to was the Flat Panel circuit (now closed). Can anyone tell me how they differ / work. Are they safer than ESL? Easier to build? Sound as good? etc etc.

Just interested really.

Thanks,
Gaz

[peterr]

Originally posted by Rarkov
1) I have a dog and I am a bit jumpy about the idea of his wagging tail hitting things it shouldn't! (He's a v. long haired English Collie!!!) Am I able to mount ESLs on the wall - in the same fashion as a picture? I plan to have them either side of my fire place - but there is no room on the floor! [/B]

It is possible to mount them on the wall but not against the wall. In order to work well ESL's need to have considerable breathing space behind them (something like 1m would be nice)

Originally posted by Rarkov
2) I'm also jumpy about touching things I shouldn't! What is a sensible way to cover the front / back(?) stators? I thick acoustic foam as used on some normal loudspeakers OK? I assume this would keep out dust aswell? [/B]

The stators should be well insulated to begin with (even Sanders says so these days). There is nothing to worry about then. If you use perforated metal it is best to have it powder coated. Alternatively you can make stators using insulated wire. It is a good idea though to use some cloth as cover to keep dust away and dampen the resonance frequency

Originally posted by Rarkov
3) Can I run my normal speaker cable to the ESLs if the electronics are in the ESL or do I need to beef them up a bit. [/B]

I use normal Cat5 speaker wire. Works a treat.

Originally posted by Rarkov
Finally...Mr Sanders seems to reason that no amount of power is enough for these things! I'm intending on making these things about 40cmx120cm (which should be about midrange). Are 140W monoblock amps (actually slightly higher due to rasied rail voltages - more like 160W) OK for this application? [/B]

It will be more than ample. It is much more important that the amp is stable into a low load. Esl’s tend to have very low impedance at high frequencies. It may be advisable to put a series resistor of 2 ohm to help the amp.

Originally posted by Rarkov
Thanks very much for your help again!
Gaz [/B]

you're welcome

[peterr]

Originally posted by Rarkov
Hi,
I went to the Audio Circuit yesterday because I like reading through texts about unusual speakers (such as ion tweeters). One of the circuits I went to was the Flat Panel circuit (now closed). Can anyone tell me how they differ / work. Are they safer than ESL? Easier to build? Sound as good? etc etc.

Just interested really.

Thanks,
Gaz

Don't know much about them but I found this:

Barry Waldron provided the following information:
I have had the opportunity of spending two afternoons with these speakers on two different occasions over the course of a year. The second pair of speakers were about five generations newer than the first pair.

I have also spoken with the designer, Klaus Zimmerman, and met him at the first session. He purchased several matching transformers from me.

"The company propaganda states that these are not electrostatic loudspeakers, however, in the broad sense, they are. The main difference is that the diaphragm is a self sealing electret element that does not get its HV charge externally. Otherwise, the speaker is comprised of two stators that act upon a diaphragm in push pull fashion by modulating a HV audio signal, just like an ESL. "

Barry Waldron

[Rarkov]

Hi,
Thanks for the info, peterr.
Gaz

[MRehorst]

Originally posted by Rarkov
I went to the Audio Circuit yesterday because I like reading through texts about unusual speakers (such as ion tweeters). One of the circuits I went to was the Flat Panel circuit (now closed). Can anyone tell me how they differ / work. Are they safer than ESL? Easier to build? Sound as good? etc etc.

There are different ways to make flat panels. ESL are one way, ribbons (like Apogees) are another, and coils glued to flm like Magnepans is another way. The last two use magnets arranged on the surface of a perforated metal sheet to provide the "bias" for the speaker. The Apogee type ribbons use a metallic conductor arranged in a serpentine fashion on the surface of a plastic film. The audio signal goes through the metallic conductor creating a magnetic field that interacts with the one set up by the stationary magnets and the result is sound. The magnepan type glue coils of wire to a plastic film and wirk pretty much the same way.

Both are "safer" than ESLs because there is no high voltage involved. I suspect they may be at least as difficult to build as ESLs, though the electronics is much simpler because there is no HV bias supply, and no step-up transformer (though they may require a step down transformer, depending upon the geometry involved).

NOTHING sounds better than an electrostatic speaker, except maybe the original source. That's just my opinion, of course, but once you listen to some ESLs, you'll understand why so many speakers compare their performance to electrostatics.

MR

[Audiofanatic]

NOTHING sounds better than an electrostatic speaker, except maybe the original source. That's just my opinion, of course, but once you listen to some ESLs, you'll understand why so many speakers compare their performance to electrostatics.

MR, You'r 100% right!
Thats why I use ESL's myself!
I'v made my own ESL's a clone of the Final 1.4 but not so tall.

Regards,


Audiofanatic

[Rarkov]

Of course you're right. I've never heard ESLs yet...and I'm dying to hear them!!!

I can't wait to build them. BTW, can the spacers between the diaphram and stator be made from ply wood? I have some lying around...

Thanks,
Gaz

[Audiofanatic]

Hi Gaz,

The best material is PVC or Plexiglas, you can use plywood but the problem is, wood will conduct when you use high voltage. I'v had this problem before.

I now use Plexiglas/acrylaat. Dont know the english name for this material.

Gr.

AF.

[MRehorst]

NO! Do not use wood. Wood is not a good insulator.

Use almost any sort of plastic you can get. PVC is an excellent insulator and is sold in sheets, but some adhesives won't stick to it. PCB material (fiberglass) is a good insulator, and easy to glue, but difficult and hazardous to cut.

I made a set of speakers using PVC insulators. I bolted the stators to the PVC using nylon bolts. Works great, and the bolts force the holes in the stator sheets to line up for maximum visual transparency (unimportant if the drivers will be behind cloth).

Finding compatible materials and adhesives are the biggest problems you have to solve when making ESLs. Everything else is pretty easy.

MR

[Rarkov]

Hi,

Just to keep everything in one thread:
There seems to be alot of problems using glue to hold the diaphram and stators on to the spacers, due to irregularities. Now, at first glance this may well sound stupid, but is it possible to use double sided sticky tape? I would be able to tightly control the D/S spacing. I would then use alot of nylon nuts / bolts to hold the whole thing together... So the build up would be as follows:

Stator : Tape : Spacer : Tape : Diaphram : Tape : Spacer : Tape : Stator

All held together with alot of nylon bolts, every 50mm or so.

How does that sound / what are the problems related to this method?

Thanks,
Gaz