absolute phase ... mrFB vrs SE :) - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > General Interest > Everything Else

Everything Else Anything related to audio / video / electronics etc) BUT remember- we have many new forums where your thread may now fit! .... Parts, Equipment & Tools, Construction Tips, Software Tools......

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th February 2003, 04:28 PM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Steve Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default Re: Feel The Bass....

Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
So, how does one know that they have a sub-concious mind then ?.
How does one know they even have a brain, let alone a conscious and/or subconscious mind?

se
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 04:30 PM   #2
diyAudio Member
 
mrfeedback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Perth, Australia.
Quote:
I don't automatically assume and subsequently claim that my subjective perceptions are the result of actual audible stimuli.
Huh ?.
So just what are the other causes of subjective perceptions ?.

Eric.
__________________
I believe not to believe in any fixed belief system.
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 05:31 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Steve Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
Steve,

Well, yeah this is what we are on about.
Do you find any subjective differing directional results ?.
If you do, then there must be a physical reason, yeah ?.
Well, I guess since my brain is a physical entity and all of my subjective perceptions are due to electrochemical processess going on in my brain, there is ultimately a "physical" reason. But that's not what I'm referring to when I say "physical."

Quote:
I meant changing polarity of input and output connections together in order conserve throughput polarity, but invert wire and transformer core polarity.
I do use my DPDT transformer arrangement so that I can easily select AP at my speakers, but that was not my question.
BTW - are you saying that you cannot hear AP ?.
I don't know one way or the other whether absolute phase is audible. I was simply pointing out that if you were changing absolute polarity, then you'd be adding another variable other than any directionality of the conductor.

Quote:
These differences were not subtle.
Go and read the thread that Frank refers to above and you will be clearer on what we mean.
I know what you mean.

Quote:
Double blind testing is typically worth less than a pinch of you know what, because of unfamiliarity with system variables - A/B testing blind or not is perfectly valid on a very familiar home system.
Yet people have done blind A/B testing in their own homes, with their own very familiar systems over periods of weeks and even months. And even during the listening sessions, they claim the differences are still not subtle. Yet when you look at the results, they're no better than if they had simply guessed randomly.

Just because you subjectively perceive a difference that you consider to be "not subtle" doesn't prove that the perceived difference has any reality beyond your own mind.

Even those taking the "sugar pill" in blind trials of medications report "not subtle" improvements in their condition. And every quack and charlatan can produce individuals who give wholly sincere testimonials.

I think you rather grossly underestimate the power of mind.

Check the listings of your local PBS station tonight and see if they're airing Scientific American Frontiers. Tonight's episode is about just what we're talking about here.

Quote:
I am perfectly concious of what my ears communicate, and I am perfectly familiar with interpreting this information under all sorts of conditions.
How exactly can your mind be sub-concious ?.
Well, we'd all like to beleive we are perfectly conscious of such things. But you don't really KNOW unless you take measures to filter out the effects of the subconcious mind as well as external influences.

As to HOW our mind comes to operate at a subconscious level isn't so easily explained. However the existence of the subconscious mind and its influences over our conscious mind have been well established for quite a long time.

Quote:
Fine fair enough point.
In my younger years I read the brocures, and believed the spiels to be true.
When the salesman plugged in say, 'Monster cables', and said "Hear that better bass ?" etc, upon that power of suggestion, I did.
On subsequent learning, and far greater experience, I now do not pay the merest heed to such suggestion.
But the suggestion doesn't have to come from a brochure or a salesman telling you there's some difference or other. The suggestion can come from your subconscious mind simply anticipating the possibility of some difference.

Quote:
In my formative years, I did indeed perform experiments, and automatically considered them to be beneficial.
In later experimenting, I have learned that one can make very fine audible differences, but these are not always beneficial fine differences, especially with long term listening.
Well PREFERENCE is a whole other matter and has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

Quote:
I thought that you were asserting that the claims of C37 and Tubolator cannot be true, or indeed possible ?.
I don't recall saying anything about C37 or Tubolator. When was this?

Quote:
I do not swallow weird claims either, but I do studty the claims, reviews and information given, in order to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Yet apparently you don't like it when others don't unquestioningly swallow your claims.

Quote:
Within my experience, I fully expect that C37 and Tubolator do affect/effect system sound, however based on my experience, I am not sure that the effect is particularly significant, nor entirely likeable - this requires personal experience of these products, and that I do not have, and my soloution is quite different.
Again, I don't recall saying anything about C37 or Tubolator.

se
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 05:47 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Steve Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
So just what are the other causes of subjective perceptions ?
Our mind.

For example:

<center>
<img src="http://www.q-audio.com/images/illusion.jpg">
</center>

The objective reality is that C is the opposite end of a straight line from point A. However our subjective perception, i.e. what our mind tells us, is that B is the opposite end.

Again, I think you rather grossly underestimate the power of mind. I know our egos don't always care for certain realities, but the rational, thinking person strives to not let ego dominate and become dogmatic.

se
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 06:53 PM   #5
Henrik is offline Henrik  Denmark
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
I agree, donīt underestimate the power of mind, it creates music from something which is not.
__________________
Henrik
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 10:26 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
Steve Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by mlloyd1
thanks for that picture steve - i've been looking for it for a long time to help me make a point or two!
mlloyd1
No problem. I was looking for it too some time back and couldn't find it so I just fired up CorelDRAW! and made it.

se
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 10:33 PM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
mrfeedback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Perth, Australia.
Default I Find Polarity Is Perfectly Audible.

Quote:
I don't know one way or the other whether absolute phase is audible.
Steve, please tell me that you are kiding me here.
On my system, I can even hear if a microphone is recorded in wrong polarity wrt the rest of the music.
On compilation CD's, I find just about every second track is recorded inverted, and so does my GF.
Bernard made a comment that it took him 20 minutes of Normal/Inverted polarity testing to understand the difference, and once you understand, then you know.

Eric.
__________________
I believe not to believe in any fixed belief system.
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 10:54 PM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
mrfeedback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Perth, Australia.
Default Listening Modes...

Steve, that illusion does not fool me for a millisecond.
The angle of B is different to A or C.
A and C have the same angle wrt to the rectangle - that is the clue, and not at all difficult to see at first glance.
Sorry, flawed example.

The key to A/B sonics testing is not to listen for HF, MF or LF changes, but to listen for patterns and correlations that have changed (or not).
When you understand this mode of listening, accurate A/B testing becomes a natural skill.

Eric.
__________________
I believe not to believe in any fixed belief system.
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 11:26 PM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Steve Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default Re: I Find Polarity Is Perfectly Audible.

Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
Steve, please tell me that you are kiding me here.
I'm not kidding at all. I don't know whether absolute polarity is audible or not. And by that all I'm saying is that I don't know whether what I subjectively perceive with respect to absolute polarity is in fact due to changes in absolute polarity. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. I don't really care one way or the other because my ego isn't threatened in either case.

se
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2003, 11:43 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Steve Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default Re: Listening Modes...

Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
Steve, that illusion does not fool me for a millisecond.
The angle of B is different to A or C.
A and C have the same angle wrt to the rectangle - that is the clue, and not at all difficult to see at first glance.
Uh, A, B and C all have the EXACT same angles with respect to the sides of the rectangle. If you see otherwise, then either you're being fooled or it's time to either have your eyes checked or your monitor repaired or replaced.

Quote:
The key to A/B sonics testing is not to listen for HF, MF or LF changes, but to listen for patterns and correlations that have changed (or not).
When you understand this mode of listening, accurate A/B testing becomes a natural skill.
Then you should have no trouble at all under blind conditions. I should hook you up with Tom Noisaine. He's been looking for someone with your powers for years. Unfortunately, those who have made similar claims to yours haven't been able to demonstrate them under blind conditions.

You could be the first. You could be famous. You could be rich. You could put an end to all this debate.

se
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Audibility of Absolute Phase RHosch Everything Else 59 25th March 2014 11:52 PM
FS - Absolute Sound Cloth Ears Swap Meet 0 28th April 2007 10:58 PM
Absolute phase cs Everything Else 144 30th January 2007 08:01 PM
An absolute noob sagar Introductions 3 24th December 2006 07:01 PM
Is absolute phase nonsense? EC8010 Everything Else 49 24th November 2003 01:37 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:49 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Đ1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2