I just hope that in a few years,
when all the kids are buying their MP3's on the internet,
they get the compressed versions.
Would be nice to have the real, hardware CD's being hifi quality
with all the dynamics possible.
It's not so hard to make a button in CD-rip programs that says "compress to Ipod version"
A standard home PC can easily do the final compression.
Heck, companies could make their own "now even fatter sound" compression programs and sell them to the masses....
when all the kids are buying their MP3's on the internet,
they get the compressed versions.
Would be nice to have the real, hardware CD's being hifi quality
with all the dynamics possible.
It's not so hard to make a button in CD-rip programs that says "compress to Ipod version"
A standard home PC can easily do the final compression.
Heck, companies could make their own "now even fatter sound" compression programs and sell them to the masses....
I'm afraid that we can do nothing with music industry, but I always tried to figure out how to reverse compressed CD to dynamic/uncopressed ones.
Has someone experience with dynamic expanders or some sort of DSP which can solve this?
I've been looking for some expander plugins to my PC to test its effect on sound, but my attempt failed because I did find compressor plugins only.
Has someone experience with dynamic expanders or some sort of DSP which can solve this?
I've been looking for some expander plugins to my PC to test its effect on sound, but my attempt failed because I did find compressor plugins only.
Darkone
Expanders are a real PAIN!
If you wanna design one use ANY nonlinear function of any circuit component
You must decide
1. How quick you want the reasponse
2. How long you want it to last and how decay
3. Are you trying if instant-peak expander or some kinda average.
If I was trying it I'd start with something real simple - like a bridge circuit with incandescent lamps in opposed arms. Filiament lamps have ten times their cold resistance when hot.
For futher ideas, and some of the complications and compromises faced, I'd start in Langford Smith (Radio Designer's Handbook) Iliffe in UK and Howard Sams in US and OZ - where they call it Radiotron Handbook!
John
Expanders are a real PAIN!
If you wanna design one use ANY nonlinear function of any circuit component
You must decide
1. How quick you want the reasponse
2. How long you want it to last and how decay
3. Are you trying if instant-peak expander or some kinda average.
If I was trying it I'd start with something real simple - like a bridge circuit with incandescent lamps in opposed arms. Filiament lamps have ten times their cold resistance when hot.
For futher ideas, and some of the complications and compromises faced, I'd start in Langford Smith (Radio Designer's Handbook) Iliffe in UK and Howard Sams in US and OZ - where they call it Radiotron Handbook!
John
Modern studio recorders use multi-band compressors that work on individual frequency bands, without knowing the settings, it would be just about impossible to undo.
On another note, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7004174.stm
On another note, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7004174.stm
Moderate multiband compression can be quite acceptable.
What I don't like is clipping (which could not be reversed BTW because it is an irreversible loss of information) and heavy compression over the full frequency range. The worst I have heard so far was Eric Prydz' "Call on me". Not that I would listen to this intentionally but when it was a hit you couldn't escape it since it was played all the time wherever you went.
Regards
Charles
What I don't like is clipping (which could not be reversed BTW because it is an irreversible loss of information) and heavy compression over the full frequency range. The worst I have heard so far was Eric Prydz' "Call on me". Not that I would listen to this intentionally but when it was a hit you couldn't escape it since it was played all the time wherever you went.
Regards
Charles
The worst statement form this one is:
"Almost without exception, each of those tracks had incredibly satisfying stereo.
Whether it was The Beatles, the Stones, The Clash, or Bruce Springsteen's Born To Run, you could take out one earphone and hear half of what was going on - then you could put in other earphone and hear something completely different. It was thrilling. "
That tells me that some of these "specialists" don't know much about the technical basics behind their job !
Regards
Charles
"Almost without exception, each of those tracks had incredibly satisfying stereo.
Whether it was The Beatles, the Stones, The Clash, or Bruce Springsteen's Born To Run, you could take out one earphone and hear half of what was going on - then you could put in other earphone and hear something completely different. It was thrilling. "
That tells me that some of these "specialists" don't know much about the technical basics behind their job !
Regards
Charles
In theory you would have to look ahead (in a LIVE PERFORMANCE)
And set the peak max not to clip threshold-of-pain transients above 120 db.
Then your cd blurb says it can record down to the quiest that sensitive ears can hear is an acoustically silent environment (padded cell in the country).
But the acoustic noise in the studio or concert hall is 40 db anyway!
So your lovely quiet (no sales) cd would have only an 80 db dynamic range. And when you listerned to it at home very loud (100 db) you'd get about 60 db dynamic range.
When my son's group www.ginpalace.net played live on BBC they turned the mean volume level down 30 db to try to accomodate the peaks.
John
And set the peak max not to clip threshold-of-pain transients above 120 db.
Then your cd blurb says it can record down to the quiest that sensitive ears can hear is an acoustically silent environment (padded cell in the country).
But the acoustic noise in the studio or concert hall is 40 db anyway!
So your lovely quiet (no sales) cd would have only an 80 db dynamic range. And when you listerned to it at home very loud (100 db) you'd get about 60 db dynamic range.
When my son's group www.ginpalace.net played live on BBC they turned the mean volume level down 30 db to try to accomodate the peaks.
John
You guys seem to be preoccupied with not LOSING any of the performance.
FAR more important is getting MORE than the performance.
If your amp gives 100 db acoustic output at 0.1% didtortion, then at performance peaks it will give more than 10% didtortion.
That means that when two notes are played you get awful sum-and-difference frequencies generated.
So your quietest signals in one channel are totally swamped by intermodulation distortion products in another channel!
John
FAR more important is getting MORE than the performance.
If your amp gives 100 db acoustic output at 0.1% didtortion, then at performance peaks it will give more than 10% didtortion.
That means that when two notes are played you get awful sum-and-difference frequencies generated.
So your quietest signals in one channel are totally swamped by intermodulation distortion products in another channel!
John
There are enough stereo systems that can cope with decent dynamic range signals. We just don't see why the dynamics are compressed in order to be accomodated for sub-standard devices.
Apart from that not many people can achieve more than about 85 dB on average, so slightly more than 100 dB peak SPL capability is more than enough for most pop/rock.
A recording studio with 40 dB of noise is definitely sub-standard. We once measured the noise in our office which is about 45 dB (A-weighted and averaged over 1 sec). And this is definitely annoying. At home I have to listen very carefully to hear the "noise floor".
Regards
Charles
Apart from that not many people can achieve more than about 85 dB on average, so slightly more than 100 dB peak SPL capability is more than enough for most pop/rock.
A recording studio with 40 dB of noise is definitely sub-standard. We once measured the noise in our office which is about 45 dB (A-weighted and averaged over 1 sec). And this is definitely annoying. At home I have to listen very carefully to hear the "noise floor".
Regards
Charles
120dB .... 45dB.........63.45666dB.....Pi^2dB....who cares?
The fact is that a lot recorded music used to sound good, and now it doesn't. I'm sure a little compression is necessary to squeeze things in but the fact is - that it's overdone. I'm sure there is a happy medium, I know, I've heard it!
....who cares?The fact is that a lot recorded music used to sound good, and now it doesn't. I'm sure a little compression is necessary to squeeze things in but the fact is - that it's overdone. I'm sure there is a happy medium, I know, I've heard it!
mpmarino said:120dB .... 45dB.........63.45666dB.....Pi^2dB
The fact is that a lot recorded music used to sound good, and now it doesn't. I'm sure a little compression is necessary to squeeze things in but the fact is - that it's overdone. I'm sure there is a happy medium, I know, I've heard it!
Yes, join the club! What we are discovering in our old age is that the originators and first providers CARE about quality: those who come later care about PROFIT.
But be reasonable! SPECIFY what you want (and extimate the market for that) before complaining.
Perfection is not a spec. Neither is "like the good old days".
A decent spec includes HOW it will be measured instrumentally
John
phase_accurate said:
If you start with restricted dynamic range and distortion you see at once the the specs used to describe cds are "not attainable in this world".
The damage recording engineers do depends on the quality of the input. Microphones are not yet digital. Tha air itself is non-linear.
John
1.) It is a common misconception that everything that is digital is perfect.
2.) Of yourse is the air non-linear but that is not an issue at all since its behaviour is also non-linear when we listen to live music.
This still has nothing to do with the fact that there is too much compression used nowadays and that the sound quality of CDs went down the drain.
Regards
Charles
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