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Old 3rd February 2003, 09:31 AM   #11
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Default Readers Dgest Version - no time just now.

Well agreed that mains noise is a culprit.
I have allso wondered about the position of the moon, or atmospheric electric conditions etc too, but I have not taken appropriate notes etc in order to correlate the cause or causes.

Eric.
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Old 3rd February 2003, 11:00 AM   #12
Bobken is offline Bobken  United Kingdom
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Hi Frank, Peter,and Eric,

I couldn't agree more with what you say here, and as I already said, there is lot more I can add to what I said last time.

However, as the self-appointed spokesperson for this thread who has a short attention span, has already said that I am boring, and as presumably he doesn't yet know how to add me to his 'ignore' list, I will desist.

I don't use the more involved setup I outlined most of the time now, as I also don't find it necessary, except in certain rather critical situations.

However, putting myself in the shoes of someone who apparently has no previous experience of this subject, I feel that my suggestion will be the quickest, and most positive, way of identifying or experiencing these differences. One can keep on switching back and forth until any differences are noticed, whereas for a novice merely listening to some music and then listening again after a mod which could take from a few minutes to some hours, I am not so sure it would be very easy.

Of course, as with a rattle in one's car, once noticed, it is not then easily forgotten, and it is then very much easier to take some shortcuts and save a lot of time in setting things up.

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Old 3rd February 2003, 11:20 AM   #13
Nielsio is offline Nielsio  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bobken
Hi Frank, Peter,and Eric,

I couldn't agree more with what you say here, and as I already said, there is lot more I can add to what I said last time.

However, as the self-appointed spokesperson for this thread who has a short attention span, has already said that I am boring, and as presumably he doesn't yet know how to add me to his 'ignore' list, I will desist.
Don't let me stop you from writing another 1329 words (your first post, covering 3 (!) A4 pages when copy-pasted into Word).

Niels.
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Old 3rd February 2003, 11:30 AM   #14
Bobken is offline Bobken  United Kingdom
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Hi Nielsio,

Is it possible for you to comprehend that I was merely trying to be helpful to someone else?

We all have our limitations, and I expect you could write a manual for a brain surgeon in just two lines, but, regrettably, I am not so clever as you appear to be.

I am sorry if you find my comments boring but they were directed towards the original enquirer, and I didn't see any need for your unwarranted intervention, which could hardly have been any less polite.


Regards,
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Old 3rd February 2003, 11:53 AM   #15
Nielsio is offline Nielsio  Netherlands
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Let me rephrase my original critique:

If you can find a way to bundle, summarize or shorten your advice, then the reader will have easier access to that information.

If after that, something is not clear, then people can ask for a further explanation or examplement on that something.

Quote:
I am sorry if you find my comments boring but they were directed towards the original enquirer, and I didn't see any need for your unwarranted intervention, which could hardly have been any less polite.
Before submitting, I thought of writing a more polite version, but I chose not to because the situation seemed obvious.

Quote:
Bob, your writing is just too long.. I got bored halfway. So maybe next time a truly brief version?
The situation being that you wrote an awful lot of text, and my remark being somewhat sarcastic (note 'a truly brief version', referring to your 'A brief reply for now, as ..').
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Old 3rd February 2003, 12:11 PM   #16
SY is offline SY  United States
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Default Re: Listening tests

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob M
How do you all who are trying out various components/designs/modifications/whatever organize your listening tests? .... How can you know with confidence that version B sounds slightly better or worse than version A, which you last heard a week ago?
Almost no-one in the DIY audio or high end audio community does any kind of valid listening test. That explains some of the remarkably silly things you can read here. The simplest comparison of input versus output of devices can be quite illuminating.

A valid listening test is one which isolates the variable being listened for. I went through a phase where I did dozens and dozens of ABX type tests (one approach to valid subjective testing), where the listener had complete control of switching, timing, source material, volume, and reference to known A and B. These tests are a pain to set up, since level matching between tow devices to less than 0.1 dB (total, not plus/minus) takes a lot of effort and more patience than the fashion crowd normally has.

A year or two of that was enough to convince me that all audible differences were reflected in non-exotic measurement differences- e.g., frequency response, level, distortion. The jaw-dropping night-and-day stuff my friends told me about when using the lastest fashion accessories seemed to disappear when the variables of expectation, desire, and unconcious bias were removed.

Nowadays, I mostly do open A-B testing for my own stuff, sometimes single channel, sometimes against a reference piece of equipment. If I think I hear a difference, I'll blind it in a simple A-B and see if I can still hear it. If I can, then I go do more measurement to track down what I'm hearing.

In my professional work these days, I do a lot of sensory research. The idea that audio alone is immune to valid subjective testing is sheer voodoo nonsense.
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Old 3rd February 2003, 02:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: Re: Listening tests

Quote:
Originally posted by SY


The idea that audio alone is immune to valid subjective testing is sheer voodoo nonsense.
It's almost like you are trying to say that you and me are hearing the same recording exactly the same way. What about emotional content and one's state of mind in a given moment? Those things are not so easy to measure and they vary all the time.
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Old 3rd February 2003, 03:23 PM   #18
Nielsio is offline Nielsio  Netherlands
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Default Re: Re: Re: Listening tests

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel


It's almost like you are trying to say that you and me are hearing the same recording exactly the same way. What about emotional content and one's state of mind in a given moment? Those things are not so easy to measure and they vary all the time.
You are missing his point.

Quote:
A valid listening test is one which isolates the variable being listened for
&
Quote:
The jaw-dropping night-and-day stuff my friends told me about when using the lastest fashion accessories seemed to disappear when the variables of expectation, desire, and unconcious bias were removed
So: SY says that these ..

Quote:
0.a Be very well aware that looks, in principle, fool and fool more than you might expect
0.b Be very well aware that your physical and phychological state varies more than you might expect
.. are too powerfull to come to a trustworthy conclusion and he has therefore reached out to measurement which, in his case, has proven to work.
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Old 3rd February 2003, 03:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Listening tests

Quote:
Originally posted by Nielsio


You are missing his point.


he has therefore reached out to measurement which, in his case, has proven to work.
And you are missing mine. When all above things are taken into account, it simply cannot be measured.
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Old 3rd February 2003, 03:52 PM   #20
SY is offline SY  United States
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Default Re: Re: Re: Listening tests

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel


It's almost like you are trying to say that you and me are hearing the same recording exactly the same way.
That doesn't even vaguely make sense.

Quote:
What about emotional content and one's state of mind in a given moment? Those things are not so easy to measure and they vary all the time.
These factors do indeed vary, and that's the whole point of eliminating them as variables.
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