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Old 7th October 2012, 03:56 PM   #591
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Quote:
Are they changing the settling time based on which range is selected?
As noted in the post above, yes--a must for a high-performance oscillator. The sample-and-hold based approach makes this very easy by the use of a gated integrator. I think you should reade these two references (along with the AP System One service manual):

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs...Fs/1980-08.pdf (pp. 10-11)
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs...Fs/1985-12.pdf (pp. 31-35)

Settling time is actually a number expressed in cycles. If an oscillator settles in 10 cycles (which would be fast for a very low distortion implementation), it would settle in 1 s at 10 Hz and in 10 ms at 1 kHz.

Samuel
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Old 7th October 2012, 07:12 PM   #592
PChi is offline PChi  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by davada View Post
Hi PChi,

"There are low charge injection analog switches avaliable which don't cause much pedestal error, glitches or ringing."

Can you put some numbers to this?

Thanks,
Hello David,
The ADG1221 claims that the Charge injection q = 0.1 pC typically.
I think that is much less than a discrete FET could achieve.
The sample and hold capacitor that I used was C = 10 nF
The voltage step, ΔV = q / C = 0.1 x 10-12 / 10 x10-9 = 10 uV (theoretical).
I guess that Analog Devices are using trimming on the charge injection used to counteract the inevitable step from the gate control signals coupling through the gate to source and drain capacitance. I attached an Oscilloscope plot of the sample and hold output signal in an earlier post which shows capacitance coupling between the switch input and output at 100 kHz but not glitches.
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Old 7th October 2012, 07:34 PM   #593
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The most amazing thing about the ADG1221 (although not relevant in this context) is that the charge injection is (at least with +-15 V supplies) nearly independent from input voltage. No idea how they get this.

Samuel
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Old 7th October 2012, 07:39 PM   #594
davada is offline davada  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PChi View Post
Hello David,
The ADG1221 claims that the Charge injection q = 0.1 pC typically.
I think that is much less than a discrete FET could achieve.
The sample and hold capacitor that I used was C = 10 nF
The voltage step, ΔV = q / C = 0.1 x 10-12 / 10 x10-9 = 10 uV (theoretical).
I guess that Analog Devices are using trimming on the charge injection used to counteract the inevitable step from the gate control signals coupling through the gate to source and drain capacitance. I attached an Oscilloscope plot of the sample and hold output signal in an earlier post which shows capacitance coupling between the switch input and output at 100 kHz but not glitches.
Hi PChi,

Thanks for this.

I'll look for your plot. If you are getting even 100uV out of that then it's very impressive.
I've tried a number of the sample and hold amps available with rather disappointing results.
I went the expense of the AD781 only to find it not suited to THSH AGCs. The hold step at a moderate 3V peak is around 100mV. I haven't been able to get better than a 5mV hold step with other offerings like the SMP04 + a 10mVpp ringing. Maybe the discrete approach is still a better way to go.
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Old 7th October 2012, 09:44 PM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coluke View Post

As far as the schematics is concerned, my 239A clone includes a buffer just before the full wave detector, and it performs actually measurably better than the original one.

L.
OK, thanks. What did you use for a buffer? I was considering a jfet input opamp like the TL051.
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Old 7th October 2012, 09:47 PM   #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Groner View Post
As noted in the post above, yes--a must for a high-performance oscillator. The sample-and-hold based approach makes this very easy by the use of a gated integrator. I think you should reade these two references (along with the AP System One service manual):

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs...Fs/1980-08.pdf (pp. 10-11)
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs...Fs/1985-12.pdf (pp. 31-35)

Settling time is actually a number expressed in cycles. If an oscillator settles in 10 cycles (which would be fast for a very low distortion implementation), it would settle in 1 s at 10 Hz and in 10 ms at 1 kHz.

Samuel
Thanks! I'll get to reading then.

I guess a long settling time is just an inconvenience and not a hindrance to high performance, is that right or is this more serious than that? I mean, if I have to wait a few seconds for the oscillator to settle down before taking a measurement, then that's just a few seconds of my time wasted and nothing more, right?
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Old 8th October 2012, 01:31 AM   #597
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I come across this thread and would like to share some useful information of low-distortion sine oscillator. The information is available from a Japenese to Chinese translation. The book describes oscillators from RC based to DDS. Chapter 5 dedicates in sine wave oscillators. Section 5-1 is traditional Wien bridge. 5-2 is low-distortion state-variable osc. 5-3 is RC phase-shift osc. 5-4 is ultra low-distortion osc which has THD < 0.001 % and 1 kHz output has a -140 dBr second harmonic.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf low-distortion osc 1.pdf (88.0 KB, 80 views)
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File Type: pdf low-distortion osc 3.pdf (73.1 KB, 48 views)
File Type: pdf low-distortion osc 4.pdf (67.2 KB, 56 views)
File Type: pdf low-distortion osc 5.pdf (70.3 KB, 69 views)
File Type: pdf low-distortion osc 6.pdf (70.4 KB, 58 views)
File Type: pdf low-distortion osc 7.pdf (54.3 KB, 61 views)
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Old 8th October 2012, 05:45 AM   #598
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Quote:
I guess a long settling time is just an inconvenience.
Sure. But you have to realize that at low frequencies the effective resulting settling time quickly becomes very awkward. For a design with simple two-way rectifier and no speed-up means, one may need so heavy filtering that the settling time easily becomes 1000 cycles. This is not a problem at 1 kHz (1 s), but at 10 Hz this is nearly two minutes (which I'd consider far from acceptable).

The newer commercial generators are another story; as they are computer controlled they are also optimized for running very fast sweeps. So they try to get sub-second settling at high frequencies.

Quote:
I come across this thread and would like to share some useful information of low-distortion sine oscillator.
Thanks!

Samuel
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Old 8th October 2012, 11:15 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by PChi View Post
Hello,
I agree with Samuel Groner,
If you want fast settling it's hard to beat the Sin^2 + Cos^2 approach. It's particularly impressive to see the operation at 10 Hz on an Oscilloscope but distortion is high.

If you want low distortion then the sample and hold or variant of works well.
There are low charge injection analog switches avaliable which don't cause much pedestal error, glitches or ringing.

I have put the circuit board shown in post #120 in a box and bought a ShibaSoku AD725C Automatic Distortion Analyzer off Ebay.
The Distortion measured was:-
At 10 Hz and 1 kHz = 0.0004 % measured with a 30 kHz low pass filter and RMS response. The residual is mostly noise with a hint of some harmonics.
At 10 kHz = 0.0006 % measured with a 100 kHz low pass filter and RMS response. The residual is mainly third harmonic.
At 20 kHz = 0.0007 % measured with a 100 kHz low pass filter and RMS response. The residual is third harmonic with others creeping in.

The ShibaSoku is a mass of close tolerance components and reed relays. The notch filter is based on 3 cascaded Bridged-T filters. Thanks to Dick Moore's web site for an explanation of the Bridged-T notch filter.
HI PChi,

As a point of reference, the oscillator I have in my THD analyzer from 1981 settles to 0.1dB at 20Hz within 1 second and to within 0.01 or so within 3 seconds. This is for either decade changes or frequency changes within a range. Total analyzer THD at 20Hz is less than 0.006%, but I think most of that is in the analyzer side and that the oscillator is much better than that.

The SV oscillator uses a simple full-wave agc detector, but uses speed-up diodes across most of the integrator input resistance. Also, the agc detector capacitors are switched for the decade range and are all precharged by each other to the nominal operating value from whatever range was previously in use. Both of these techniques speed up settling when frequency or range is changed.

The design is shown in the THD analyzer article on my website at CordellAudio.com - Home.

Cheers,
Bob
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Old 8th October 2012, 07:26 PM   #600
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So, is this thread going to lead to a definitive "super oscillator" schematic, or is everyone just punting ideas around?
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