How many times did you run it through the laminator? Just once? Did you preheat the board before running it through the laminator?
Sounds good with the presentation paper. It's always good to have alternatives.
~Tom
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I'm impressed. 
Question:
Would a cheap HP P1006 Monochrome laser jet be satisfactory for the printing? Is HP's patented new spherical toner appropriate for circuit boards? I assume the little balls of plastic should still melt uniformly?
It's a cheap laser printer. I need a new printer anyway...
Question:
Would a cheap HP P1006 Monochrome laser jet be satisfactory for the printing? Is HP's patented new spherical toner appropriate for circuit boards? I assume the little balls of plastic should still melt uniformly?
It's a cheap laser printer. I need a new printer anyway...
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No, I didn't bother to heat the board first.
That GBC H425 laminator is a monster though; I can clearly see through the paper that the toner adheres after only one pass. I still ran it through about 4 or 5 times just for good measure; it's not a big deal to me. Even if I had to run it through 10 times it's still easier, faster, and more consistent than using an iron.
I don't know why some people worry about having to do multiple passes; it's probably the least time and effort consuming part of the whole process.
I'm impressed.
Question:
Would a cheap HP P1006 Monochrome laser jet be satisfactory for the printing? Is HP's patented new spherical toner appropriate for circuit boards? I assume the little balls of plastic should still melt uniformly?
It's a cheap laser printer. I need a new printer anyway...
As long as it prints dark enough, it should work just fine.
I was using an old POS Lexmark Optra E312 for years. It just recently started printing with these weird stretch mark looking cracks in the toner, so I set it out on the curb and bought a Samsung ML-2525W (love it).
I think I've perfected my transfer method.
My previous board had some pitting due to what I assume was not enough toner being layed down on my transfers. I found out I could make it a little darker by choosing "thick" for the paper type.
This latest board came out the best I've ever done. No pitting at all and the traces and text/image came out as good as I think one could ever expect with this method.
Here is a pic of part of the board with some really small text (the scale above is millimeters).
My previous board had some pitting due to what I assume was not enough toner being layed down on my transfers. I found out I could make it a little darker by choosing "thick" for the paper type.
This latest board came out the best I've ever done. No pitting at all and the traces and text/image came out as good as I think one could ever expect with this method.
Here is a pic of part of the board with some really small text (the scale above is millimeters).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I looked at about 3 of the lower level Samsung laser printers. Price is right, and twice the DPI [dots per inch] should be twice the plastic sprayed on and and then melted cohesively with the laser. 1200 x 1200 dpi has to be more plastic than 600 x 600 dpi, thus more resistance to etchants? Then there is the tricks to try and coerce the printer to spray more toner. Thick paper setting works, you say? Sounds good.
One of their models, still cheap, also does wireless networking and fax. That's a handy universal printer.
The laminators are really quite inexpensive as well. All there is left to do is source cheap but good copper board. Seems expensive at Digikey.
One of their models, still cheap, also does wireless networking and fax. That's a handy universal printer.
The laminators are really quite inexpensive as well. All there is left to do is source cheap but good copper board. Seems expensive at Digikey.
I have a feeling that's not quite how it works. If you look at the specs for 1200dpi laser printers they always make sure to say "effective output", which I assume means they are using some fancy trickery.
The first board I did that had the pitting issue had a 1200dpi printed transfer. The nearly flawless board I posted above was printed at 600dpi.
I dunno.
I'm loving this Samsung ML-2525w wireless printer though.
Well, the one I've been using retails for a couple hundred bucks, so they're not all cheap. Just make sure it's a GBC brand.
For PCB stock, I buy from ebay seller abcfab.
(side note: The laser in a laser printer doesn't melt anything, the fuser does. The lasers function is actually far more interesting.)
HowStuffWorks "How Laser Printers Work"
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I could see some people being worried about the artwork shifting between passes, but as long as the toner sticks the first time through I wouldn't think that would be an issue. I haven't had any issues when using an iron where I have to flip the artwork/pcb compo half way through to apply pressure to the other layer.
I sense a laminator order coming up here pretty soon. Thanks for sharing your data! The thin lines and sharpness of the text on your board is pretty impressive.
~Tom
I just ran 6 boards through my cheap laminator from target with great results. Boards were 2"x2"
I cut the magazine paper with the layout big enough to fold around one edge and used a small piece of tape to hold it for the first 2 passes until the toner tacked onto the board. Then ran it through about 4 more times changing insertion point along the roller and board orientation until the board was nice and hot and the traces started to show through the paper. Dunked it in a bowl of water and the paper just lifted away after a minute or less.
All etched great. The printer wouldn't feed the partsexpress paper so I went back to the magazine paper I used before. Printer settings set to highest quality, true black (Uses only black toner for traces instead of making black from CMYK) and I think I had it on gloss black.
2 boards had a little pitting but they were from a different print run with different settings.
Once you find your printer settings that work.. make sure you write them down!
The printer doesn't have to be the best on the market. I used an OKIdata 600x1200 dpi iirc.
I might try a test board with different line thickness and clearance just for reference. Anyone have an Eagle file of one?
I cut the magazine paper with the layout big enough to fold around one edge and used a small piece of tape to hold it for the first 2 passes until the toner tacked onto the board. Then ran it through about 4 more times changing insertion point along the roller and board orientation until the board was nice and hot and the traces started to show through the paper. Dunked it in a bowl of water and the paper just lifted away after a minute or less.
All etched great. The printer wouldn't feed the partsexpress paper so I went back to the magazine paper I used before. Printer settings set to highest quality, true black (Uses only black toner for traces instead of making black from CMYK) and I think I had it on gloss black.
2 boards had a little pitting but they were from a different print run with different settings.
Once you find your printer settings that work.. make sure you write them down!
The printer doesn't have to be the best on the market. I used an OKIdata 600x1200 dpi iirc.
I might try a test board with different line thickness and clearance just for reference. Anyone have an Eagle file of one?
I have a feeling that's not quite how it works. If you look at the specs for 1200dpi laser printers they always make sure to say "effective output", which I assume means they are using some fancy trickery.
The first board I did that had the pitting issue had a 1200dpi printed transfer. The nearly flawless board I posted above was printed at 600dpi.
I dunno.
I'm loving this Samsung ML-2525w wireless printer though.
Well, the one I've been using retails for a couple hundred bucks, so they're not all cheap. Just make sure it's a GBC brand.
For PCB stock, I buy from ebay seller abcfab.
(side note: The laser in a laser printer doesn't melt anything, the fuser does. The lasers function is actually far more interesting.)
HowStuffWorks "How Laser Printers Work"
Yeah... def... def... definitely abcfab. Yeah...
Back when I used to make a lot of boards with TT, abcfab cut board blanks to size, for me, within something like .01-inch. And he's great to deal with. Other decent sources included mouser.com and ebay.com (search for FR4, probably).
BTW, for those who haven't, also check out Homebrew_PCBs, at yahoogroups.com.
You guys are doing some good work!
Cheers,
Tom Gootee
OT: Do you by any chance use it wirelessly with a Mac? I hear that there are problems, but it would be nice if they have been worked out with a driver upgrade or flashing the unit.
Sorry Pete, I don't use that word in my house.
I try not to, but my son just got one; it was required for his college school work so I'm told.
I almost dropped dead on my kitchen floor the other day when my 8 year old daughter asked me for an iPad. 
I told her that maybe SantaDroid will bring her a Froyo based slate device this xmas. She looked at me crazy for a few seconds and then repeated that she wanted an iPad. I blame it on fluoridated water.
I told her that maybe SantaDroid will bring her a Froyo based slate device this xmas. She looked at me crazy for a few seconds and then repeated that she wanted an iPad. I blame it on fluoridated water.
nah, blame it on being the best tablet around, so more institutions (think schools) and workplaces are taking it on daily for paperless applications.
now I know I probably should have asked my advice before making steam come out your ears but I just happened to order some boards from abcfab the other day (just came up when I searched ebay for FR4 funnily enough) as I figure being into this stuff and having 3 laser printers sitting around doing nothing but printing images isnt healthy. I come from a family of graphic designers and 2 of those printers are xerox colour lasers (docuprint) so I can do A3 at a true resolution of 2400dpi, but I wont use it this high, the reason you guys are getting pitting most likely is because you are using paper that is not set up for fine screening and will not 'hang onto' the toner for lack of a better word. cheaper paper will generally only take up to 100-120lpi and about 2-4 times that resolution, so when you choose a higher resolution the toner isnt fused to the paper completely.
anyway i'm just checking in, so
magazine paper • check
laser printer/s • check
copper laminate • check
print black only • check
possible laminator • will have to...check
agitator?? do you guys use anything like this?
soap and water • check
now is where i'm not 100% sure, best chemicals and concentrations, what are they?
finest traces that should be attempted with this process now with little experience and a little later after I have the process down?
tips for double sided board registration? I was planning on just drilling a couple of fine holes and using some sort of pins to hold it in place
thanks for any advice, really informative thread and if I can get results as fine as above I would be super pleased
thanks again
Jeremy
now I know I probably should have asked my advice before making steam come out your ears
but I just happened to order some boards from abcfab the other day (just came up when I searched ebay for FR4 funnily enough) as I figure being into this stuff and having 3 laser printers sitting around doing nothing but printing images isnt healthy. I come from a family of graphic designers and 2 of those printers are xerox colour lasers (docuprint) so I can do A3 at a true resolution of 2400dpi, but I wont use it this high, the reason you guys are getting pitting most likely is because you are using paper that is not set up for fine screening and will not 'hang onto' the toner for lack of a better word. cheaper paper will generally only take up to 100-120lpi and about 2-4 times that resolution, so when you choose a higher resolution the toner isnt fused to the paper completely.anyway i'm just checking in, so
magazine paper • check
laser printer/s • check
copper laminate • check
print black only • check
possible laminator • will have to...check
agitator?? do you guys use anything like this?
soap and water • check
now is where i'm not 100% sure, best chemicals and concentrations, what are they?
finest traces that should be attempted with this process now with little experience and a little later after I have the process down?
tips for double sided board registration? I was planning on just drilling a couple of fine holes and using some sort of pins to hold it in place
thanks for any advice, really informative thread and if I can get results as fine as above I would be super pleased
thanks again
Jeremy
I'm sure Jeremy's an expert by now, but for anybody who comes to this very useful but veteran thread looking for information, a very useful resource is the Pulsar Web site
PCB "Fab-In-A-Box" ... The 8min circuit board system.
Lots of useful information, centered on their products of course, but much generally applicable.
BTW, if anybody is thinking of modifying the GBC Creative or Personal laminators, one site which published modifications (for higher temperature) in 2009 said in 2011 that the current Creative/Personal laminators were no good for modifying. An Australian site, may only hold for 230V models.
I saw a report somewhere from someone modifying a laminator; the temperature required varied quite a lot for different printer/toner.
Necrobump for my two bits:
I want to get going with pcb etching here. I have amazon prime so i bought this cheapie GBC:
Amazon.com : Swingline GBC Laminator, Inspire, Thermal, 9 inch Max Width, Quick Warm-Up (1701855) : Laminating Machines : Office Products
Yeah, Swingline branded, but co-branded by GBC.
the price seems to fluctuate, i think i paid $18 shipped?
Sticker on the bottom rates it at 110w.
It has no trouble accepting my at-least-1/16"-thick FR4.
For some reason i can't seem to lay hands on a K thermocouple with a two pin plug at the moment, but my non-contact thermometer guesstimated the temperature of the rollers at 190f when the LED turned on.
Naturally i voided the warranty and cracked it open to get a look at the goo inside.
It's simple to loosen up the pressure between the rollers by bending two little springs, but that doesn't seem to be necessary or advantageous.
There seems to be an aluminum extrusion and some kind of heating element below the bottom roller, and another heating element inside the top roller. They are made of high temperature rubber.
There is a small circuit board with a triac and an opamp. Three pin header clearly marked "Motor Ground Heat" and two prong plug that goes to a little board right up against the middle of the top roller clearly marked "NTC".
So since it's using an NTC thermistor to judge the temperature of the rollers, I clipped one of the thermistor leads and inserted a 1K resistor.
Also pulled the thermal fuse out of it's crevice in the extrusion and pushed it aside.
The non-contact thermometer now judges that the rollers are at about 270f when the LED turns on, and they seem to hold steady about there.
We'd have to characterize the thermistor and do some math to figure out exactly how to predict the temperature, but eh.
I might see if i can find like a 2.5k linear potentiometer and put a 'heat' knob on the side.
I'm a complete n00b at home pcb manufacture. i've done it once before, 5 or 6 years ago, with a flat iron, and that was a pain in the ***. For about an hour that day i owned a harbor freight laminator, which had solid rollers and could not accept my copper clad board.
Anyway, for my next trick, I'll be looking into slowing down the motor - 120vac gear motor rated at 5rpm. four watt load i think i read. I've seen where a few people have modified laminators to roll a bit and then wait a bit, using both relays and SCRs. I think i'd prefer to just be able to adjust the speed all the way down to 1rpm. need to do some research. I'm sure an arduino will be involved.
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"... adjust the speed all the way down to 1rpm. need to do some research. I'm sure an arduino will be involved. " Re changing the motor speed: in days gone by there were plenty of circuits - no Arduino, they didn't exist - to control and stabilise the speed of AC (and of DC) motors, typically for an electric drill. If there are no simple recent circuits, a search for "drill speed controller" might help. Probably from before the time variable-speed drills were widely sold. I'm not active in this any more. just from memory. HTH
right, they worked by limiting the voltage at the motor, which also reduces torque, which can be a problem.
I was referring to phase angle control, which has several advantages, but might be a bigger pain in the butt than i really want to get into.
I mentioned drill speed controllers; ercij responded "they worked by limiting the voltage at the motor, which also reduces torque". I'd have to go back and look at these things, which I don't want to do; but the better circuits used phase angle control with simple electronics (thyristors, transistors, triacs) and did a reasonable job of maintaining speed (hence increasing torque as loading increased). I think back emf was the indicator of motor speed. I mention this not to start a discussion, but as something you might want to look at as a possible simple way to control motor speed, and something that's been done, rather than requiring experiment and reinvention of the wheel. HTH
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