Matching the Tram2 Gain to a Power Amp
Could the 4 Power Buffer be the perfect current follower type power amp to match the Tram2 gain, free of the output attenuation resister network?
Could the 4 Power Buffer be the perfect current follower type power amp to match the Tram2 gain, free of the output attenuation resister network?
Work is finally complete, and I can only commend Desmo for backing the Rod Coleman regs as the way forward.
I published a picture of my heat spreader earlier in the link, here is one of the regs now ready to install:
I built the raw dc supply with BHC ALS10 caps, as the ALS range have always been amongst my favourites. It has worked out quite nicely and fits well within the tight Tram2 case:
As for the sound, it has been a massive step up.
Compared to my usual line of idht triode line stage preamps my original Tram2 was something of a disappointment. It was big and easy, true, but it was also somewhat mechanical and congested at the same time.
It is now a genuinely good line stage. It manages big tone, easy, relaxed and an amazing sense of depth and soundstage. I am still a little unsure about the absolute bottom octave and a slightly mechanical feel across the midband, which may be the HT supply compared to the passive LCLC I am used to, but even with that caveat it really is something rather special.
The Rod Coleman regs are an absolute must imho, as they help the Tram2 to finally deliver on its promise, and massively reduce the noise floor of the amp.
The resistors are all Tant film, and I use the shunt mod with a 270K resistor to reduce overall gain in order to counteract the worst excess of my high output AN DAC.
If you haven't done the Coleman regs yet, I commend them!
I published a picture of my heat spreader earlier in the link, here is one of the regs now ready to install:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I built the raw dc supply with BHC ALS10 caps, as the ALS range have always been amongst my favourites. It has worked out quite nicely and fits well within the tight Tram2 case:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
As for the sound, it has been a massive step up.
Compared to my usual line of idht triode line stage preamps my original Tram2 was something of a disappointment. It was big and easy, true, but it was also somewhat mechanical and congested at the same time.
It is now a genuinely good line stage. It manages big tone, easy, relaxed and an amazing sense of depth and soundstage. I am still a little unsure about the absolute bottom octave and a slightly mechanical feel across the midband, which may be the HT supply compared to the passive LCLC I am used to, but even with that caveat it really is something rather special.
The Rod Coleman regs are an absolute must imho, as they help the Tram2 to finally deliver on its promise, and massively reduce the noise floor of the amp.
The resistors are all Tant film, and I use the shunt mod with a 270K resistor to reduce overall gain in order to counteract the worst excess of my high output AN DAC.
If you haven't done the Coleman regs yet, I commend them!
Rod, their is only one vertical circuit board either side??? It just looks like there are two boards either side.
Also, have a read of the e-mail below from another friend who was at the same audio listening session last night. We were listening to some very good audio equipment, but there was something wrong. Have a read. Could you explain the interaction between the inverter and the mains power with the sound of the music.
The e-mail:
Hi Guys
Here’s a little tale from last night, four Queensland Audio Club guys got together as they do, myself being one of them! Now I’d been to this member’s house about 6-8 weeks earlier and he has a both musical and dynamic setup. Now we were pulling bit in and out so the sound was obviously going to fluctuate but from memory the whole first 2-3 hours just didn’t hit the highs of my previous visit.
Now our host isn’t a man to accept average or even good and he was quietly getting irate at this dilemma. The topic came up and the other guys were saying “well it’s not as good a sound as our last visit three weeks ago” … so the question was raised “so what’s different/changed since then”. Well in fact the main system hadn’t actually been switched on since then. But hey, we’d already been running 2-3 hours so everything would have been warmed up by then? Our host left the room and we continued talking – zap – listen to that. Hey, slowly over a minute or so – whoosh – everything came into focus – the magic had reappeared in the audio – beautiful.
Our host returned – hey - sit down and listen to this! A smile appeared on his face – “okay – what did you just do …” Well, the one thing that had happened over the last three week was the installation of a solar panel system on the roof. Although it wouldn’t have been working at 11:00 pm and would have been sat “off-line” it was still on. He’d simply turned off the inverter – doh.
So, although not “ticking over” the inverter must have been turning out a hell of a lot of “hash/interference” through the power supply blah, blah blah – no we couldn’t really come up with a positive reason. But back and forth we went – inverter on – crap sound – inverter off – magic sound – off – crap – on – magic.
So for those with solar, it might be worth a try. Play a few of your favourite tracks – go turn your solar off – come back and replay then. It’d be interesting to “hear” if you get a similar improvement J
Cheers
It was a very strange experience that was resolved.
Also, have a read of the e-mail below from another friend who was at the same audio listening session last night. We were listening to some very good audio equipment, but there was something wrong. Have a read. Could you explain the interaction between the inverter and the mains power with the sound of the music.
The e-mail:
Hi Guys
Here’s a little tale from last night, four Queensland Audio Club guys got together as they do, myself being one of them! Now I’d been to this member’s house about 6-8 weeks earlier and he has a both musical and dynamic setup. Now we were pulling bit in and out so the sound was obviously going to fluctuate but from memory the whole first 2-3 hours just didn’t hit the highs of my previous visit.
Now our host isn’t a man to accept average or even good and he was quietly getting irate at this dilemma. The topic came up and the other guys were saying “well it’s not as good a sound as our last visit three weeks ago” … so the question was raised “so what’s different/changed since then”. Well in fact the main system hadn’t actually been switched on since then. But hey, we’d already been running 2-3 hours so everything would have been warmed up by then? Our host left the room and we continued talking – zap – listen to that. Hey, slowly over a minute or so – whoosh – everything came into focus – the magic had reappeared in the audio – beautiful.
Our host returned – hey - sit down and listen to this! A smile appeared on his face – “okay – what did you just do …” Well, the one thing that had happened over the last three week was the installation of a solar panel system on the roof. Although it wouldn’t have been working at 11:00 pm and would have been sat “off-line” it was still on. He’d simply turned off the inverter – doh.
So, although not “ticking over” the inverter must have been turning out a hell of a lot of “hash/interference” through the power supply blah, blah blah – no we couldn’t really come up with a positive reason. But back and forth we went – inverter on – crap sound – inverter off – magic sound – off – crap – on – magic.
So for those with solar, it might be worth a try. Play a few of your favourite tracks – go turn your solar off – come back and replay then. It’d be interesting to “hear” if you get a similar improvement J
Cheers
It was a very strange experience that was resolved.
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The raw dc supply for the Coleman regs has been built using BHC/KEMET ALC10 series caps, 10,000uF 63V for the first one after the bridge rec, and 10,000uF 40V for the second one after the dropper resistors, they are the black caps on the circuit boards in the centre. I used these instead of the large white Rifa electrolytics shown in other solutions.
For the audio output, as discussed earlier in the thread, I have removed the resistor network and have a single 1M0 resistor across the output, and currently use a 1uF 400V SuperCap Robert Hovland Series cap as the output. In hand I also have a Intertechnik Audyn True Copper Cap and an old Audio Note Tin Foil PIO to try out. Whichever gives the best overall balance will remain in place. I would really like to use Dueland VSF or Cast but cannot justify the cost.
After the Tram2 I have a low gain system using valve power amps with high input impedance. I don't need the gain reduction provided by the resistor network, as the Tram2 is now v quiet with the Coleman boards and Herbie's dampers on the 2A3s, so I have used it as an opportunity to put a more regular output cap/resistor pairing.
For the audio output, as discussed earlier in the thread, I have removed the resistor network and have a single 1M0 resistor across the output, and currently use a 1uF 400V SuperCap Robert Hovland Series cap as the output. In hand I also have a Intertechnik Audyn True Copper Cap and an old Audio Note Tin Foil PIO to try out. Whichever gives the best overall balance will remain in place. I would really like to use Dueland VSF or Cast but cannot justify the cost.
After the Tram2 I have a low gain system using valve power amps with high input impedance. I don't need the gain reduction provided by the resistor network, as the Tram2 is now v quiet with the Coleman boards and Herbie's dampers on the 2A3s, so I have used it as an opportunity to put a more regular output cap/resistor pairing.
Innovations and new products, including the Tram 2, ceased in late 2010 when Brian Cherry stopped fronting the company. He was very enthusiastic about his products and answered all questions and suggestions in a timely manner. I have spent a lot of money with DIY HiFi Supply over the last five years and now get very frustrated when questions I ask about these products often get ignored.
Tram2 - DHT OTL Linestage Kit - Level 3 Remote Controllable
By the way, the Tram 2 is still listed on the website, but showing out of stock, presumably because of the unavailability of the FCUPS module. (see post #702)
Tram2 - DHT OTL Linestage Kit - Level 3 Remote Controllable
By the way, the Tram 2 is still listed on the website, but showing out of stock, presumably because of the unavailability of the FCUPS module. (see post #702)
Yes, DIYHIFI Supply needs an enthusiastic front person and technicians to keep the ideas coming to keep abreast of the very expensive audio products from around the world.
I personally purchased my Tram2 when I was in Hong Kong a few years ago. I only saw Simon and another person at the shop. No Brian Berry. They need him back. The shop was more like a warehouse.
I personally purchased my Tram2 when I was in Hong Kong a few years ago. I only saw Simon and another person at the shop. No Brian Berry. They need him back. The shop was more like a warehouse.
An answer to the Solar panel inverter affecting Tram2 audio sound:
Very interesting , Guys
Hope this helps , FYI, In the past I been Involved with design and install of RF Communication Radio Australia ,ABC TV , FM and MB phone transmitting and receiving Towers and also run a solar voltaic & hot water sales & design business back in the late 80s/ 90s .
Yes , I agree with you and have and did noticed the “ effect of Hash on my music & also the effect on the quality of “” HD television picture “” some 4 years ago when my Back into the Grid Solar system was first installed .
Some Solar types of inverters / control units may inject a series of spurious RF harmonics 0 ~ 10 MHz back into the national power grid and your house power cables system “ at worst mainly during day time “ sun radiation window “ hours .
In the standby mode .( No sun ) night time will ,the level of the noise depend on the Brand ( some units are worse than others ) and in theory should put out minimal hash or spurious to the CE standard ,,Hmmm .. The noise when the “ standby circuits “ are activated , however they can leak back through the wiring .. and “ house earth “
Also the Solar Inverter units “ depending on “ brand “ can and do radiate a bunch of spurious RF harmonics & noise via radio frequency , that is
These solar inverters can act like small RF Transmitter . ( depends on inverter size and AC current , 1 ,2,3,5,10 KW )
There is an easy way to “ hear “ if any item in your house ( like Green Fluor lamps) is radiation spurious RF harmonics “ noise “ is take a small “ battery powered “ portable radio , put it on the AM band say around 730 KHz and move it in and out near the inverter .. ..during the day time .. then try again at 9 o’clock at night .. and listen to the difference in the noise level .
Can also try tuning just off a radio station on the FM band , and you will get a similar result …
The radio acts as a Noise detector … simple but effective test .
This is the way I use to detect noisy or faulty insulators on the over head grid power lines , use a car radio
What I did with my own Audio /Video reference system was Shield the Inverter Unit , In a double 1/8 “ mild steel box .. and then fit Bybee SE- AC purifiers in series with the Active , Neutral and earth of a power cable I plug into wall 240v outlet ( I use I lead from the wall outlet to my multiple power outlet , std filter box . Bingo .. better picture . better sound any time of the day due to the shielded box , Bybee AC–SE gold filters ( as used in the Bybee Power Filter ) and minimal - air RF borne radiation from the Inverter .
Induced into the house wiring or equipment ..
You also need to have the Inverter Units as far away from you’re A/V gear as possible .
This I achieved in the first place by telling the installers where to put the inverter and yes I paid extra money for it , extra heavy duty wiring from the solar panels and extra earth cable from inverter to the panels on the roof . .
As the solar panel & cables+ roof act like an LF , HF RF antenna as well .. to pick up local MB phone , Wireless , NBN Satellite and Microwave towers.
And in a nearby lightning storm the panels & roof collect air borne static electricity .. that will and can zap your equipment without the panels and roof being properly earthed back to the common earth terminal block in the Power Meter Box .
Hope this helps
Kind Regards
Russell Storey Ph 02 66793059
Stones Sound Studio
Audio & Acoustic Consultant Engineers ( Australia )
Very interesting , Guys
Hope this helps , FYI, In the past I been Involved with design and install of RF Communication Radio Australia ,ABC TV , FM and MB phone transmitting and receiving Towers and also run a solar voltaic & hot water sales & design business back in the late 80s/ 90s .
Yes , I agree with you and have and did noticed the “ effect of Hash on my music & also the effect on the quality of “” HD television picture “” some 4 years ago when my Back into the Grid Solar system was first installed .
Some Solar types of inverters / control units may inject a series of spurious RF harmonics 0 ~ 10 MHz back into the national power grid and your house power cables system “ at worst mainly during day time “ sun radiation window “ hours .
In the standby mode .( No sun ) night time will ,the level of the noise depend on the Brand ( some units are worse than others ) and in theory should put out minimal hash or spurious to the CE standard ,,Hmmm .. The noise when the “ standby circuits “ are activated , however they can leak back through the wiring .. and “ house earth “
Also the Solar Inverter units “ depending on “ brand “ can and do radiate a bunch of spurious RF harmonics & noise via radio frequency , that is
These solar inverters can act like small RF Transmitter . ( depends on inverter size and AC current , 1 ,2,3,5,10 KW )
There is an easy way to “ hear “ if any item in your house ( like Green Fluor lamps) is radiation spurious RF harmonics “ noise “ is take a small “ battery powered “ portable radio , put it on the AM band say around 730 KHz and move it in and out near the inverter .. ..during the day time .. then try again at 9 o’clock at night .. and listen to the difference in the noise level .
Can also try tuning just off a radio station on the FM band , and you will get a similar result …
The radio acts as a Noise detector … simple but effective test .
This is the way I use to detect noisy or faulty insulators on the over head grid power lines , use a car radio
What I did with my own Audio /Video reference system was Shield the Inverter Unit , In a double 1/8 “ mild steel box .. and then fit Bybee SE- AC purifiers in series with the Active , Neutral and earth of a power cable I plug into wall 240v outlet ( I use I lead from the wall outlet to my multiple power outlet , std filter box . Bingo .. better picture . better sound any time of the day due to the shielded box , Bybee AC–SE gold filters ( as used in the Bybee Power Filter ) and minimal - air RF borne radiation from the Inverter .
Induced into the house wiring or equipment ..
You also need to have the Inverter Units as far away from you’re A/V gear as possible .
This I achieved in the first place by telling the installers where to put the inverter and yes I paid extra money for it , extra heavy duty wiring from the solar panels and extra earth cable from inverter to the panels on the roof . .
As the solar panel & cables+ roof act like an LF , HF RF antenna as well .. to pick up local MB phone , Wireless , NBN Satellite and Microwave towers.
And in a nearby lightning storm the panels & roof collect air borne static electricity .. that will and can zap your equipment without the panels and roof being properly earthed back to the common earth terminal block in the Power Meter Box .
Hope this helps
Kind Regards
Russell Storey Ph 02 66793059
Stones Sound Studio
Audio & Acoustic Consultant Engineers ( Australia )
The problem of injection of noise into the mains electricity supply is a well known phenomena. Inverters due to their power are the most noticeable but most SMPS do the same thing. Most of us will have multiple switch modes at home and it is worth a little experiment of unplugging them all then plugging them back in, to see if the music sounds any different.
Running a dedicated power circuit for audio is only partially protective. The injected noise can travel not just from other power circuits in one home but via the gird from your neighbours.
I dont know if any Power Filters are good enough to clean this hash out of the mains electricity supply?
Is there a DIY solution?
Running a dedicated power circuit for audio is only partially protective. The injected noise can travel not just from other power circuits in one home but via the gird from your neighbours.
I dont know if any Power Filters are good enough to clean this hash out of the mains electricity supply?
Is there a DIY solution?
Hi all, finally received my Tram2 back (after installation of the Coleman regs and other mods) and also received my new power amp last week (after waiting nearly a year). I have only had a few hours of listening time as yet.
To my ears, my system now sounds extraordinarily good. My only complaint is that the Tram2 is producing a fair bit of (tube-like) noise in the right channel (only). I swapped the two EML 45's, but the noise stayed with the right channel. I also swapped the rectifier and 6AS7 tubes with some cheap Chinese ones, to no avail. It seems further investigation is required.
As an aside, I asked the tech who did the work about using 2A3's in the Tram2. In his opinion, the Tram2 power supply is barely able to drive the 45's properly, and would not be able to properly drive 2A3's unless an external transformer was used.... and yet I understand that several of you are in fact using 2A3's, presumably without problems...? I'm scratching my head a bit about this one...
- r.
To my ears, my system now sounds extraordinarily good. My only complaint is that the Tram2 is producing a fair bit of (tube-like) noise in the right channel (only). I swapped the two EML 45's, but the noise stayed with the right channel. I also swapped the rectifier and 6AS7 tubes with some cheap Chinese ones, to no avail. It seems further investigation is required.
As an aside, I asked the tech who did the work about using 2A3's in the Tram2. In his opinion, the Tram2 power supply is barely able to drive the 45's properly, and would not be able to properly drive 2A3's unless an external transformer was used.... and yet I understand that several of you are in fact using 2A3's, presumably without problems...? I'm scratching my head a bit about this one...
- r.
Did, the Tram2 have the noise in the right channel before you took it to Lucas. He should be able to see were the noise is coming from with his test equipment. He would have tested your pre-amp after the completion of the modifications.
You should take it back to him for a check-up to see where the noise is coming from. It could be his location of mod components???
Or is it your power amp causing the noise???
All the best
Peter
You should take it back to him for a check-up to see where the noise is coming from. It could be his location of mod components???
Or is it your power amp causing the noise???
All the best
Peter
Hi Peter, when i first received the Tram2 from diyaudioSupply, the right channel had really bad hum and then failed completely (the CCS board failed). So the right hand channel has always had problems.
It's not my power amp because when i swap the interconnects between the Tram2 and the power amp, the noise swaps channels. Also it is still there even when i power down my DAC, so i believe it's the Tram2. One thing i have not yet done is to reposition the Tram2... i need to get some longer interconnects to do this...
Hi Bjarne, i believe the tech feels it's the current source coming through the 6AS7. However, I will measure the voltage as you suggest this week. Incidentally, i understand that another local Tram2 owner has the same problem. The tech also commented about the whole circuit being unstable, and this makes me think of Morten's replacement of each trimpot with a fixed resistor.
I will ask for more info about the transformer.
- richard
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