Just wanted to ask for the same, I had Supratek Chanin only , always wanted to try Cabernet Dual ,but lack of dealers and crazy tax on the top stopped me to go for it . No lack with sourcing used as well ,as they are quite rare here in Europe
Hi Greg,
This is the system on which I have been listening to the Tram2 preamp, and until recently my 104dB efficiency Edgar Horns. The loudspeakers are Nakamichi Dragons, a very fast and detailed thin membrane electrostatic hybrid.
The system does change from time-to-time though as I am a little spoilt for choice as you can see from my Blog Site here:
Steve M 's Audio System
Cheers,
Steve.
Wonderful system Steve . I know that blog very well , nice to see that's You and you here as well
As I already added to Morten's comment I like Supratek stuff a lot - really decent job, and Mick Maloney is such a nice guy to contact. I envy you are so close that you can easy try them.Give me 1st refusal please if you ever decide to put your preamp on sale.
As i see you have been using horns as well, that makes things easier between us when exchange opinions,as once really need to own horns for a while to understand properly what it is all about ;]
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Now this is interesting. Let me say at the outset that i have not heard the 2A3's at all... BUT both of the above descriptions of their sonic attributes apply (IMO) to my friend's system with a Tram2 with EML globe 45's (and now with Coleman regs)! I would say his system is very, very far from being restricted, polite or 'blending details'! It is amazingly dynamic and live.
Having said that, I am intrigued by the descriptions of the TJ 2A3's and will buy a pair when i can scrape the cash together. I can only imagine!
Oh, BTW Morten, I decided to take your advice and have bought 8 of the 2.2uF Obbligato tin foils for use as output caps (5x2.2=11uF per side, rather than your 6x=13.2uF!). Just waiting on delivery from Simon, hopefully in the next day or two...
- richard
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The Tram II is one of the most dynamic and ''live'' sounding preamps out there. When I first got mine I used it with 45 tubes because as it has been said the 45's are regarded higher than the 2A3 (the best 2A3 is a 45 etc etc)... I honestly did not believe that a preamp could sound more dynamic, ''live'' and clear...
Then I installed 2A3's and was amazed about how much more dynamic, ''live'' and dense the sound became... At this stage I was quite sure it could not get any better...
Then I installed the Rod Coleman DHT regulators and was once again amazed by the increase in dynamics and ''live feeling''. And with the Rod Coleman regulators the sound became so much more natural also. Like if a slight ''electronic sound'' has gone...
My point is: There is a lot of potential in this little beast, and since it's so good from the beginning, and so dynamic even with 45's it's hard to believe that it can get any better... But it can..! And your upgrade with the Obbligato tinfoils is one of the better upgrades..! As said before: Upgrading the output cap gives more sonic benefit in the Tram II than upgrading the input caps (they are already very good)...
Then I installed 2A3's and was amazed about how much more dynamic, ''live'' and dense the sound became... At this stage I was quite sure it could not get any better...
Then I installed the Rod Coleman DHT regulators and was once again amazed by the increase in dynamics and ''live feeling''. And with the Rod Coleman regulators the sound became so much more natural also. Like if a slight ''electronic sound'' has gone...
My point is: There is a lot of potential in this little beast, and since it's so good from the beginning, and so dynamic even with 45's it's hard to believe that it can get any better... But it can..! And your upgrade with the Obbligato tinfoils is one of the better upgrades..! As said before: Upgrading the output cap gives more sonic benefit in the Tram II than upgrading the input caps (they are already very good)...
This is question Ive been wondering as well.
Thorsten said
"This is the price to be paid for using the electronic volume control.
It is VERY GOOD (I would say better than most affordable stepped attenuators, you need a ToKo Stepper or a TVC to do significantly better) but it means if the signal becomes greater than the Volume Controls supply rail nasty stuff happens, not just clipping, but protection circuitry kicks in as well..."
Does anyone know the voltage value on the supply rail? That will set the maximum input V p-p for working out Vmax RMS.
Thorsten was right . This VC is the first think to get rid off, once I start to work on it - presumably some nice TVC /AVC , like Sladge on output will replace existing one - I believe its going to bring massive improvements.
This seems to be ''The UK thing'', to put a stepped transformer on the output of the preamp. Clive has been talking about this also, but I don't think he has tried it yet... Personally I'm skeptical about adding an (volume) output transformer, I'm not sure it will bring any sonic benefit, but hearing is believing, so I'm very curious to hear about your results with this..! Let us know if you try it.
In the meantime just install two high quality 100K series resistors and use the volume in shunt mode. It sounds better this way, better than the VERY GOOD Thorsten refers to, and there is no voltage limit on the input.
There are lot's of important mods that I would do before the volume control, the most important one being the Rod Coleman DHT regulators.
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This seems to be ''The UK thing'', to put a stepped transformer on the output of the preamp. Clive has been talking about this also, but I don't think he has tried it yet... Personally I'm skeptical about adding an (volume) output transformer, I'm not sure it will bring any sonic benefit, but hearing is believing, so I'm very curious to hear about your results with this..! Let us know if you try it.
of course I will post it here
In the meantime just install two high quality 100K series resistors and use the volume in shunt mode. It sounds better this way, better than the VERY GOOD Thorsten refers to, and there is no voltage limit on the input.
just waiting for them to come
There are lot's of important mods that I would do before the volume control, the most important one being the Rod Coleman DHT regulators.
I agree ,Morten those are next thing to order. The big Evox Rifas are already here!
Txs for keep going with all your tips and tweaks so far ; ]
DHT's
Im enjoyed reading the collective input on 45's vs 2A3.
I thought Id add my little experience as well. Ive tried five different types of 45's and two 2A3's. I use the same speakers as Steve posted above - the Dragon ESL's that have SS active amping. I can blame Steve for buying those ESL's and Steve can balme me for having a Tram2. Sorry Steve.
In my system I preferred the 2A3 RCA's over any of the 45's. They were much more alive and dynamic sounding. Surprisingly these tubes had less noise then any of my 45's. Steve found the same and we both had Rev2 heater reg's. Steve - you better have the Coleman boards coming cause you are living on borrowed time running 2A3's
I think a collective pattern is emerging with DHT types.
The 2A3's are on the whole are much more dynamic.
45's fit well with high efficiency horns (but 2A3's might be even more of a blast especially with an output trannie to turn the Tram2 into a quasi integrated 2A3 amp and bypass power amp's?)
The earlier the tube the softer and more relaxed it might sound?
Im enjoyed reading the collective input on 45's vs 2A3.
I thought Id add my little experience as well. Ive tried five different types of 45's and two 2A3's. I use the same speakers as Steve posted above - the Dragon ESL's that have SS active amping. I can blame Steve for buying those ESL's and Steve can balme me for having a Tram2. Sorry Steve.
In my system I preferred the 2A3 RCA's over any of the 45's. They were much more alive and dynamic sounding. Surprisingly these tubes had less noise then any of my 45's. Steve found the same and we both had Rev2 heater reg's. Steve - you better have the Coleman boards coming cause you are living on borrowed time running 2A3's
I think a collective pattern is emerging with DHT types.
The 2A3's are on the whole are much more dynamic.
45's fit well with high efficiency horns (but 2A3's might be even more of a blast especially with an output trannie to turn the Tram2 into a quasi integrated 2A3 amp and bypass power amp's?)
The earlier the tube the softer and more relaxed it might sound?
- the softest 45's I tried were 1920 vintage globes.1950's 45's Sylvania brighter.
- 2A3's even more dynamic. Full Music 2A3/SE have been recommended
- grid or mesh plates are not recommended
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This Princess might be a tricky one, as basically as I understand this one is more like WE 205D in its character than , any other that voltage or name would suggest - at least such were findings reported by those who's been using Tektron universal amps (45 / 50 /VT-52/ 2A3 /300b - all work in)
Interesting. Thanks. What is the 205D meant to sound like?
I wonder how the Full Music 300b/2.5V/c will sound in the Tram2. Can you borrow a pair?
Hello Again,
Yes, I thought my system pic showing the Supratek Grange 300B DHT preamplifier would pique a bit of interest with you guys and, result in the inevitable requests for a comparison from me.
I have got to what I think is a (mature) stage in my audio journey where I prefer not to chose a 'best of' with any type of equipment that plays at a higher level. Lets just say that the Grange and Tram2 are at this higher level and both are super-excellent. Your choice might mainly be dictated by cost or come down to trying to achieve the best system synergy with the rest of your components. That the Tram2 plays in this territory @ $2K is a great credit to it.
I have briefly tried out many preamps in my system over the years, some borrowed or auditioned via visiting audiophiles. The only other preamp besides the Supratek and Tram2 that satisfies my personal set of listening criteria, was the First Sound Presence Deluxe from the USA. All three have a similar knack of getting the electronics out of the way and leaving the music alive and wriggling in the room, they are expressive as hell and communicate the intent of the musicians very well.
As explained in my audio Blog, my Supratek Grange is a pretty special thing and was Mick Maloney's personal unit before he let me have it. It has evolved over the years and he has upgraded it from time to time, not to the extent of his more recent circuits which are built to be more technically competent and to measure better. The later units are imo maybe not quite as valvey sounding and soulful as the 300B circuit in my particular Grange. It is a personal taste thing, but my idea of reality is to try and retain the original valveyness. The small tubes at the front of my Grange is the phono stage, it sounds exceptional and imho sonically worth about $10K on its own!
I also need to respond to the view that the wiring in the Suprateks is a little messy underneath. I do not disagree with this, but there are reasons for it. Firstly, its mainly messy because the chassis is quite small and jam-packed with exotic servo circuits etc. There is no space to run wires with visual appeal in mind and for the eye to see lots of chassis space - which normally gives the illusion of neatness. It is all hard wired and Mick takes meticulous care twisting every wire onto the contact points and his soldering is expertly applied. He runs the wires from point A to point B in a straight line - the shortest way to do it, no bends and long wires to degrade the sound, it sounds better this way from his experience. But mainly, the chassis is very cramped and all the wiring has to be jammed in there to fit. So why doesn't he build a bigger chassis or use circuit boards to miniturise the layout? I am guessing that PCBs are not purist enough an approach for Mick and bigger chassis would spoil the external aesthetics, which most people agree is a luxurious and timeless look.
The design pedigree of the Supratek is such that it is essentially dead-quiet compared to the Tram2, hardly any hum or buzzes. It is a myth that all DHT preamps are by nature noisy. I think that with the Tram2, a lot of the noise comes about because both power supply and preamp circuit are squeezed into one box and stray eddy currents, RFI, EMI whatever, are all affecting the output signal. The Supratek overcomes this with a two box affair with a long umbilical cord that allows you to separate the power supply. It hums a bit too if you place the power supply right next to the preamp section.
Anyway, getting back to the sound of the Tram2. When I first switched it on I was gobsmacked by the clarity and sense of space around the vocal and instruments! This was into my DIY active Edgar Horn loudspeakers, the sound was full of expression, very dynamic (micro & macro) and fleshed out to the nth degree. I felt it took a jump on the Supratek. However, over the course of several comparative listening sessions I'm not so sure? Upon going back to the Supratek, the soundstage increases in width and size, the clarity is still there and it is a more relaxing musical experience.
Of course, I am more than aware that my Tram2 is a standard version and I need to trick it up with the Coleman regulators and better caps on the output/input. So look out for Report #2 from me, when I have done the improvements ...however, be aware that I am not really prone to waxing lyrical about mods and fancy parts unless there is an obvious effect as I am a firm believer in 'circuit design first'.
Cheers,
Steve.
Blog Site: Steve M 's Audio System
Yes, I thought my system pic showing the Supratek Grange 300B DHT preamplifier would pique a bit of interest with you guys and, result in the inevitable requests for a comparison from me.
I have got to what I think is a (mature) stage in my audio journey where I prefer not to chose a 'best of' with any type of equipment that plays at a higher level. Lets just say that the Grange and Tram2 are at this higher level and both are super-excellent. Your choice might mainly be dictated by cost or come down to trying to achieve the best system synergy with the rest of your components. That the Tram2 plays in this territory @ $2K is a great credit to it.
I have briefly tried out many preamps in my system over the years, some borrowed or auditioned via visiting audiophiles. The only other preamp besides the Supratek and Tram2 that satisfies my personal set of listening criteria, was the First Sound Presence Deluxe from the USA. All three have a similar knack of getting the electronics out of the way and leaving the music alive and wriggling in the room, they are expressive as hell and communicate the intent of the musicians very well.
As explained in my audio Blog, my Supratek Grange is a pretty special thing and was Mick Maloney's personal unit before he let me have it. It has evolved over the years and he has upgraded it from time to time, not to the extent of his more recent circuits which are built to be more technically competent and to measure better. The later units are imo maybe not quite as valvey sounding and soulful as the 300B circuit in my particular Grange. It is a personal taste thing, but my idea of reality is to try and retain the original valveyness. The small tubes at the front of my Grange is the phono stage, it sounds exceptional and imho sonically worth about $10K on its own!
I also need to respond to the view that the wiring in the Suprateks is a little messy underneath. I do not disagree with this, but there are reasons for it. Firstly, its mainly messy because the chassis is quite small and jam-packed with exotic servo circuits etc. There is no space to run wires with visual appeal in mind and for the eye to see lots of chassis space - which normally gives the illusion of neatness. It is all hard wired and Mick takes meticulous care twisting every wire onto the contact points and his soldering is expertly applied. He runs the wires from point A to point B in a straight line - the shortest way to do it, no bends and long wires to degrade the sound, it sounds better this way from his experience. But mainly, the chassis is very cramped and all the wiring has to be jammed in there to fit. So why doesn't he build a bigger chassis or use circuit boards to miniturise the layout? I am guessing that PCBs are not purist enough an approach for Mick and bigger chassis would spoil the external aesthetics, which most people agree is a luxurious and timeless look.
The design pedigree of the Supratek is such that it is essentially dead-quiet compared to the Tram2, hardly any hum or buzzes. It is a myth that all DHT preamps are by nature noisy. I think that with the Tram2, a lot of the noise comes about because both power supply and preamp circuit are squeezed into one box and stray eddy currents, RFI, EMI whatever, are all affecting the output signal. The Supratek overcomes this with a two box affair with a long umbilical cord that allows you to separate the power supply. It hums a bit too if you place the power supply right next to the preamp section.
Anyway, getting back to the sound of the Tram2. When I first switched it on I was gobsmacked by the clarity and sense of space around the vocal and instruments! This was into my DIY active Edgar Horn loudspeakers, the sound was full of expression, very dynamic (micro & macro) and fleshed out to the nth degree. I felt it took a jump on the Supratek. However, over the course of several comparative listening sessions I'm not so sure? Upon going back to the Supratek, the soundstage increases in width and size, the clarity is still there and it is a more relaxing musical experience.
Of course, I am more than aware that my Tram2 is a standard version and I need to trick it up with the Coleman regulators and better caps on the output/input. So look out for Report #2 from me, when I have done the improvements ...however, be aware that I am not really prone to waxing lyrical about mods and fancy parts unless there is an obvious effect as I am a firm believer in 'circuit design first'.
Cheers,
Steve.
Blog Site: Steve M 's Audio System
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
My Tram2 preamp with 1.6mm copper cages around the 2A3s to reduce hum
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Txs Steve
it is really good to hear that Tram , even plain one , still keeps up to date against such a creature like your Grange is Damn - this one is presumably the most beautiful one of all I ever seen in a flash or just on somebody's picture. Please keep us informed if and how are all things further progressing ,once you start to work on it , as I will too.
it is really good to hear that Tram , even plain one , still keeps up to date against such a creature like your Grange is
Damn - this one is presumably the most beautiful one of all I ever seen in a flash or just on somebody's picture. Please keep us informed if and how are all things further progressing ,once you start to work on it , as I will too.
Your Supratek is a work of art. Underneath the classic Supratek internal wiring might appear chaotic but Mick specifically designed it that way so wires cross at near 90 degrees to reduce cross talk and induced hum.
I wonder if under the rear covers of your Supratek are output transformers (since the power is housed in a separate chassis)? If so that might explain why it tends to be quieter and have a more mellow presentation? The Tram2 being OTL is a rare DHT beast and that might go some way to explain its superb dynamics and spatial ability?
Hello kazap/H,
Yes, there are a couple of large heavy transformers under those gold towers, the Supratek Grange is a transformer coupled DHT/SET design. As I have said I believe in 'circuit design first', if the design is good then it should sound good. I do not think that transformers are necessarily evil if they are doing the job correctly, within a given design implementation.
If you are worried about transformers in the output - then you might as well abandon even cost-no-object designs such as the AudioNote Ongaku amplifier which has miles of silver wire for the signal to pass thru' in its output transformers.
Also, did you know that the Tram2 is not an ultimate implementation of an OTL circuit as it still has output capacitors for the signal to pass through. In a perfect world there would not be output caps in circuit to degrade the signal.
Cheers,
Steve.
Yes, there are a couple of large heavy transformers under those gold towers, the Supratek Grange is a transformer coupled DHT/SET design. As I have said I believe in 'circuit design first', if the design is good then it should sound good. I do not think that transformers are necessarily evil if they are doing the job correctly, within a given design implementation.
If you are worried about transformers in the output - then you might as well abandon even cost-no-object designs such as the AudioNote Ongaku amplifier which has miles of silver wire for the signal to pass thru' in its output transformers.
Also, did you know that the Tram2 is not an ultimate implementation of an OTL circuit as it still has output capacitors for the signal to pass through. In a perfect world there would not be output caps in circuit to degrade the signal.
Cheers,
Steve.
Desmo, not sure its a "UK thing" as I have only really seen it extensively used by Thomas Mayer, such as VinylSavor: Making of a 6AH4 line stage: circuit
I am also not convinced, but I do have a TVC, and the Tram2 is set up for shunt mode (Audio Note DAC with high output....), so I could always feed the Tram2 on max volume into the TVC and see what we get !
A a beginner Im just trying to understand why the volume limit would be put on the output? Is the idea the Tram2 is fed a strong input signal to maximize the signal to noise ratio?
I thought TVC's were built for signal level input at <2Vrms. Which TVC can handle the Tram2 running 2A3's at full blast?
Hi!
This is not an UK thing as Simon already pointed out. Transformer volume controls had been used in some studio gears decades ago. The first one who brought this back into the mind of the audio scene was Serge Schmidlin (audioconsulting) with his Silver Rock as far as I know. This was in the 1990ies. Back then I experimented with Lundahl input transformers with all windings wired in series as autoformer to get some steps. The potential was immediately apparent. I used a Silver Rock after that for several years.
Dave Slagle of intact audio was another pioneer of modern TVCs I am using mostly his TVCs now.
I would never want to go back to a resistive volume control. The reason why I put the TVCs at the output of the preamp is simply to have a low impedance driver which can handle the inductive load.
Best regards
Thomas
This is not an UK thing as Simon already pointed out. Transformer volume controls had been used in some studio gears decades ago. The first one who brought this back into the mind of the audio scene was Serge Schmidlin (audioconsulting) with his Silver Rock as far as I know. This was in the 1990ies. Back then I experimented with Lundahl input transformers with all windings wired in series as autoformer to get some steps. The potential was immediately apparent. I used a Silver Rock after that for several years.
Dave Slagle of intact audio was another pioneer of modern TVCs I am using mostly his TVCs now.
I would never want to go back to a resistive volume control. The reason why I put the TVCs at the output of the preamp is simply to have a low impedance driver which can handle the inductive load.
Best regards
Thomas
You could say it's a German thing too....what put this idea in my head in the first place was that Thorsten drew me a 2A3 DHT preamp circuit a few years ago. It was on this circuit that he put in a TVC on the output. Personally I like the idea of keeping the signal in the valves way above the level of any noise - with Rod's heater ps noise will be low but there's also microphonics which will never be erradicated, this will only ever be reduced.
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