Hi all,
Zanden in the Model 5000 uses only ONE TDA1541. The DAC that used 16pcs of parallel DAC's was the Audio Note Japan Hibari (later renamed Ongaku) DAC, using 16pcs PCM56 in parallel.
As only the K-Grade PCM-56 come anywhere close to the needed perfomance level of CD and as I doubt that this many K-Grade old chips remained I suspect the paralleling was done to get enough resolution with standard grade unselected PCM-56. The current Ongaku DAC from ANJ uses PCM1704 (1 pair) and the CS8420 in "upsampling" mode (bringing the digital filter back via the snbeaky backdoor).
If you use selected (Crown) grade TDA1541 one chip suffices for CD resolution. BTW, as an aside, both ANJ and Zanden DAC's appear to use Valve rectifiers for the DAC supplies....
Sayonara
TV Man said:
Zanden in the Model 5000 uses only ONE TDA1541. The DAC that used 16pcs of parallel DAC's was the Audio Note Japan Hibari (later renamed Ongaku) DAC, using 16pcs PCM56 in parallel.
As only the K-Grade PCM-56 come anywhere close to the needed perfomance level of CD and as I doubt that this many K-Grade old chips remained I suspect the paralleling was done to get enough resolution with standard grade unselected PCM-56. The current Ongaku DAC from ANJ uses PCM1704 (1 pair) and the CS8420 in "upsampling" mode (bringing the digital filter back via the snbeaky backdoor).
If you use selected (Crown) grade TDA1541 one chip suffices for CD resolution. BTW, as an aside, both ANJ and Zanden DAC's appear to use Valve rectifiers for the DAC supplies....
Sayonara
Thanks for clearing up the confusion. I must be suffering from information overaload. Having read so may different articles in so many different places it has all become a huge mush of data in my head. That or I'm simply proving my neophyte status to everyone. 
Your good advice has just made my DAC project a lot simpler...
Do you know if they choke filter the valve rectifier for the DAC supply? Valve rectified power for digital supply... this is a very interesting idea.
Thanks again
Your good advice has just made my DAC project a lot simpler...
Do you know if they choke filter the valve rectifier for the DAC supply? Valve rectified power for digital supply... this is a very interesting idea.
Thanks again
What advantage would a valve supply bring to the DAC?TV Man said:Do you know if they choke filter the valve rectifier for the DAC supply? Valve rectified power for digital supply... this is a very interesting idea.
Thanks again
Personally I prefer the TDA1543 over the TDA1541AS1. Much cheaper too. See also the other thread why is 7805 better then LM1085?.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7265&pagenumber=1
Hi Elso,
Although I tend to think the same as you do on this subject there are reports from people that tube-supplies are the non plus ultra for DAC's. To me tube-supplies are too complicated and voluminous. The generated heat and the attraction of dust complicate things even more. Or maybe it boils down to a matter of taste or the mystic that seems to belong to tubegear ? The tube gang would like their computers to have tubes only for the sake of tubes. I don't know the results because I never wanted to try. Maybe we should simply try and listen. The reasons for using tubes in supplies that I read till now were very vague to say at least. Less sensitive to RF etc. etc. Could be magic
Just look at the ever returning example of the Zanden 5000 Mk2 at www.zandenaudio.com. Why would a factory choose for the most expensive solution if there are so much good ( and cheaper ) semiconductor solutions ?
Ok, this is arguable because the customer pays the difference at the end of the line.Elso,
I agree with jean-paul about the possible reasons for tube rectified power for the DAC.
From my very limited personal experience with DACs I have to say that I honestly don't know if it will be better or not.
My dilemma is the Zanden DAC jean-paul mentioned. It's supposed to be one of the best sounding in the world... The only "tricks" I know about in the design are the tube rectified power for DAC and a special proprietary I/V filter. But then I thought they had 16 chips in parallel too, so what do I really know
I'm still at the very early stages of experimentation with all of this. A true neophyte as my title suggests
What I'm hoping for is to play around with different ideas and build a world class DAC on the cheap. At the same time a set of concepts that work for me and provide the sound I'm looking for will hopefully crystallize. This project is going to teach me a lot
I have enjoyed reading your posts about the TDA1543 DAC you made and your re-clocker. I have one of Scott's DACKITs with the TDA1543. It sounds really nice. I want to mod it to get the power supply down to 5V and change a few other things around to hear the results. I also have a AD1865N-K coming after reading your ideas about that chip. I'd like to try the PCM63K and PCM1704 too. So as you can see evrything is still pretty nebulous at this point for me as I'm still in DAC building kindergarten
Hearing the improvements in my system after building/modding my SET monoblocks got my creative juices flowing. Next up is the digital side of things. Hence the interest in building DACs.
Also, thanks for the link to the power supply thread... I'm still going through it. Interesting ideas there.
I really appreciate all of the great ideas from the experienced builder/designers here. There is a wealth of information and it's nice to be able be a part of this community!!
Moving off topic a little... Do you have a kit for your reclocker?? I'm interested in building one.
Thanks again
I agree with jean-paul about the possible reasons for tube rectified power for the DAC.
From my very limited personal experience with DACs I have to say that I honestly don't know if it will be better or not.
My dilemma is the Zanden DAC jean-paul mentioned. It's supposed to be one of the best sounding in the world... The only "tricks" I know about in the design are the tube rectified power for DAC and a special proprietary I/V filter. But then I thought they had 16 chips in parallel too, so what do I really know
I'm still at the very early stages of experimentation with all of this. A true neophyte as my title suggests
What I'm hoping for is to play around with different ideas and build a world class DAC on the cheap. At the same time a set of concepts that work for me and provide the sound I'm looking for will hopefully crystallize. This project is going to teach me a lot
I have enjoyed reading your posts about the TDA1543 DAC you made and your re-clocker. I have one of Scott's DACKITs with the TDA1543. It sounds really nice. I want to mod it to get the power supply down to 5V and change a few other things around to hear the results. I also have a AD1865N-K coming after reading your ideas about that chip. I'd like to try the PCM63K and PCM1704 too. So as you can see evrything is still pretty nebulous at this point for me as I'm still in DAC building kindergarten
Hearing the improvements in my system after building/modding my SET monoblocks got my creative juices flowing. Next up is the digital side of things. Hence the interest in building DACs.
Also, thanks for the link to the power supply thread... I'm still going through it. Interesting ideas there.
I really appreciate all of the great ideas from the experienced builder/designers here. There is a wealth of information and it's nice to be able be a part of this community!!
Moving off topic a little... Do you have a kit for your reclocker?? I'm interested in building one.
Thanks again
Re: Re: Zanden Parallel DAC Questions
Hi,
This is indeed a good question. The relatively high impedance of the Valve can be simulated by a simple series resistor, the complete absence of switching noise by using Schottky diodes.
I know of a German Turntable designer who has a Valve rectified DC supply for the turntable (a unit of considerable mass etc.) claiming significant sonic improvements over a solid state supply.
I too find that wherever I can replace solid state with valves the sound gains a certain something.
I guess it's a little like asyncronous reclocking which in theory should make things much worse, but seems to give subjective sonic improvements.
This as with so many is a matter of taste. I have tried most Chips and I would personaly rank starting with the best:
TDA1541 (crown)
TDA1545
TDA1543 ties with PCM63 and PCM56
PCM1702 (and one assumes PCM1704)
All tested non oversampling with very basic circuits. But in my system the main source is LP, so I seek not "better digital" but "more analogue digital"....
Sayonara
Hi,
Elso Kwak said:
This is indeed a good question. The relatively high impedance of the Valve can be simulated by a simple series resistor, the complete absence of switching noise by using Schottky diodes.
I know of a German Turntable designer who has a Valve rectified DC supply for the turntable (a unit of considerable mass etc.) claiming significant sonic improvements over a solid state supply.
I too find that wherever I can replace solid state with valves the sound gains a certain something.
I guess it's a little like asyncronous reclocking which in theory should make things much worse, but seems to give subjective sonic improvements.
This as with so many is a matter of taste. I have tried most Chips and I would personaly rank starting with the best:
TDA1541 (crown)
TDA1545
TDA1543 ties with PCM63 and PCM56
PCM1702 (and one assumes PCM1704)
All tested non oversampling with very basic circuits. But in my system the main source is LP, so I seek not "better digital" but "more analogue digital"....
Sayonara
Zanden DAC
Hi All,
The Zanden DAC is interesting as are all attempts to build the ultimate DAC.
I see about 26 (twentysix(!)) coils and one valve on the main board on the website. Are these supposed to be for powersupply filtering?
Many people find the TDA154AS1 better than the TDA1543. I will not argue about taste. It may also depend on the rest of your gear.
Hi All,
The Zanden DAC is interesting as are all attempts to build the ultimate DAC.
I see about 26 (twentysix(!)) coils and one valve on the main board on the website. Are these supposed to be for powersupply filtering?
Many people find the TDA154AS1 better than the TDA1543. I will not argue about taste. It may also depend on the rest of your gear.
Re: Zanden DAC
Hi,
No, this is the Audio Filter. Yamada san devised a clever (and widely patent pending) filter that uses mutiple constant impedance LCR Traps to remove the digital images WITHOUT conventional lowpassing (and attandent phaseshift in the audio band). Best look up the Patent.
The One Valve is a 6922/ECC88/6DJ8 and is the analogue stage. With only 1V RMS out and the usual Zanden active loading the I/V conversion resistor and filter combo must be around 25 Ohm effective, close to my own value.
The DAC also uses 2pcs 6CA4 (EZ81) and 1pcs 6X4 (MK I has 3pcs EZ81/6CA4). I would as guess think the two EZ81's give the voltages plus and minus rectified, with the 6X4 supplying the output stage, but I may be wrong there. The latest revision of my Adagio is BTW not miles away from the Zanden unit in the analogue stage, the DAC PSU is still solid state. Next unit build I may try using Valve rectifiers and Choke input LC filteruing using a batch of the Rubycon 100uF/35V Mylar Capacitors.
Probably in a few years or so....
Sayonara
Hi,
Elso Kwak said:
No, this is the Audio Filter. Yamada san devised a clever (and widely patent pending) filter that uses mutiple constant impedance LCR Traps to remove the digital images WITHOUT conventional lowpassing (and attandent phaseshift in the audio band). Best look up the Patent.
The One Valve is a 6922/ECC88/6DJ8 and is the analogue stage. With only 1V RMS out and the usual Zanden active loading the I/V conversion resistor and filter combo must be around 25 Ohm effective, close to my own value.
The DAC also uses 2pcs 6CA4 (EZ81) and 1pcs 6X4 (MK I has 3pcs EZ81/6CA4). I would as guess think the two EZ81's give the voltages plus and minus rectified, with the 6X4 supplying the output stage, but I may be wrong there. The latest revision of my Adagio is BTW not miles away from the Zanden unit in the analogue stage, the DAC PSU is still solid state. Next unit build I may try using Valve rectifiers and Choke input LC filteruing using a batch of the Rubycon 100uF/35V Mylar Capacitors.
Probably in a few years or so....
Sayonara
Zanden DAC
Hi Sayonara,
Thanks for the reply. You know a lot about the Zanden DAC! I was a bit confused by the Zanden website as the picture with all these inductors was designated as the main board and below that was a line "analog filter". When I clicked on the main board I got a larger picture. Do you have any Patent number that I can have a look at? Thanks in advance.
Hi Sayonara,
Thanks for the reply. You know a lot about the Zanden DAC! I was a bit confused by the Zanden website as the picture with all these inductors was designated as the main board and below that was a line "analog filter". When I clicked on the main board I got a larger picture. Do you have any Patent number that I can have a look at? Thanks in advance.
Sayanara= Thorsten Loesch
http://thunderstoneaudio.nav.to
Yes indeed Jean-Paul. When you click on the profile of Kuei Yang Wang you see as homepage Thorsten Loeschs homepage:jean-paul said:
http://thunderstoneaudio.nav.to
Off Topic
Kuei, I have aquestion for you. I noticed in the Thermionic Valve Output Stages for Digital Audio articel the van Alstine tube DAC is listed as being TDa1541A based. I have the Omegastar 16 bit DAC from van Alstine and have checked for the DAC chips. To me they are a mystery because what looks like the DAC (fed by CS8412) are tagged as Fairchild DM74LS08N which are 4 gate AND chips. Any ideas on this??
Kuei, I have aquestion for you. I noticed in the Thermionic Valve Output Stages for Digital Audio articel the van Alstine tube DAC is listed as being TDa1541A based. I have the Omegastar 16 bit DAC from van Alstine and have checked for the DAC chips. To me they are a mystery because what looks like the DAC (fed by CS8412) are tagged as Fairchild DM74LS08N which are 4 gate AND chips. Any ideas on this??
Re: Zanden DAC
Hi,
Not really, but I like to keep in touch with what is going on. Unlike some other manufacturers Zanden seems quite open about what they are doing, for the rest a modicum of educated guesswork more than suffices.
IIRC it's a japanese Patent APPLICATION (hence patent pending), I don't have the number hand. Do a search for Yamada in Inventor and Zanden in Asignee.
Well, I just did....
JP2000349579
Sayonara
Hi,
Elso Kwak said:
Not really, but I like to keep in touch with what is going on. Unlike some other manufacturers Zanden seems quite open about what they are doing, for the rest a modicum of educated guesswork more than suffices.
IIRC it's a japanese Patent APPLICATION (hence patent pending), I don't have the number hand. Do a search for Yamada in Inventor and Zanden in Asignee.
Well, I just did....
JP2000349579
Sayonara
Re: Off Topic
Hi,
ThanX. She's a great gal, the best in fact. Very pretty (Model material in fact), smart and senible... One in a million at least.
I wasn't really hiding, some people spotted me at the first post (tipping my hat to Dave "planet10" Transmissionline....
Glad I could help.
Sayonara.
Hi,
ThanX. She's a great gal, the best in fact. Very pretty (Model material in fact), smart and senible... One in a million at least.
I wasn't really hiding, some people spotted me at the first post (tipping my hat to Dave "planet10" Transmissionline....
Thanks for all the good advice over the past year
Glad I could help.
Sayonara.
Re: Off Topic
Hi,
This would seem some form of re-timing or simply re-generating the waveform. The original van Alastine DAC known to me had SAA7220 & TDA1541. This MAY have changed since, not sure, it's been around kinda for a while.
Also, in the good old (and new) days it was a favourite pasttime of smaller manufacturers to grind off the partnumbers of IC's and Transistors they used , so you may be able to identify the other chips for lack of Logos and numbers... Naim and Krell did the same thing with more style by having quite common as muck transistors printed with their own type number and thus confused the heck out of wannabe Clowns (or waz dat Clones...), british NVA simply potted the whole circuit in some kind hard as hell resin which put a stop to enquiring minds...
Sayonara
Hi,
TV Man said:
This would seem some form of re-timing or simply re-generating the waveform. The original van Alastine DAC known to me had SAA7220 & TDA1541. This MAY have changed since, not sure, it's been around kinda for a while.
Also, in the good old (and new) days it was a favourite pasttime of smaller manufacturers to grind off the partnumbers of IC's and Transistors they used , so you may be able to identify the other chips for lack of Logos and numbers... Naim and Krell did the same thing with more style by having quite common as muck transistors printed with their own type number and thus confused the heck out of wannabe Clowns (or waz dat Clones...
), british NVA simply potted the whole circuit in some kind hard as hell resin which put a stop to enquiring minds...Sayonara
Zanden DAC
Hi Thorsten,
Thanks for the Patent info. I found the full Patent. It is granted now.
Unfortunately the text is in Japanese except the Abstract.
What I understand from the schematics it has a series of tuned traps [parallel resononant circuits composed of inductor and capacitor, resistor <I>AND</I> a series resonant circuit combined in a T shaped circuit] at fs, 2fs, 3fs, 4fs and 5fs.
The published phase response above 20kHz looks horrible but the phase at 20kHz is lagging only 15 degrees.
From what I make of it the 1kHz squarewave must look horrible too. But I may be completely wrong. How on earth can this sound good???
I once tried a single trap circuit at 44.1kHz but was not satisfied with the result. Squarewave response gets seriously compromised.
Hi Thorsten,
Thanks for the Patent info. I found the full Patent. It is granted now.
Unfortunately the text is in Japanese except the Abstract.
What I understand from the schematics it has a series of tuned traps [parallel resononant circuits composed of inductor and capacitor, resistor <I>AND</I> a series resonant circuit combined in a T shaped circuit] at fs, 2fs, 3fs, 4fs and 5fs.
The published phase response above 20kHz looks horrible but the phase at 20kHz is lagging only 15 degrees.
From what I make of it the 1kHz squarewave must look horrible too. But I may be completely wrong. How on earth can this sound good???
I once tried a single trap circuit at 44.1kHz but was not satisfied with the result. Squarewave response gets seriously compromised.
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