Any suggestions?
The only thing I have any experience with regarding PCB design is PCB Express.
Are there any cheap (its all relative) PCB layout programs that have some sort of schematic interface auto-layout?
I'm just curious where some of you guys get access to doing these 4-layer PCBs on your "projects"... seems more like large-scale production in some cases
Thanks,
Scott
The only thing I have any experience with regarding PCB design is PCB Express.
Are there any cheap (its all relative) PCB layout programs that have some sort of schematic interface auto-layout?
I'm just curious where some of you guys get access to doing these 4-layer PCBs on your "projects"... seems more like large-scale production in some cases
Thanks,
Scott
I am just using Protel DXP. They give you a one month trial (fully functional demo). When I was almost done with the first month, they put out the service pack, which gave me another full month. I like this program a lot, but it is way too much money to buy, but it is fully functional for one month.
For a cheap program, check out Eagle:
http://www.cadsoft.de/
I didn't like Eagle as much as Protel, but I will probably eventually use it, since I can afford it.
--
Brian
For a cheap program, check out Eagle:
http://www.cadsoft.de/
I didn't like Eagle as much as Protel, but I will probably eventually use it, since I can afford it.
--
Brian
Yes, i agree with BrianGT! These 2 programs are really "the best" for it´s intended use... while I think that Protel is a little bit overloaded with features..... for a quick an dirty pcb Eagle would be my choice, it heavily saves time when developing a little project.... But Protel, boah, especially when doing a team project, is alone on it´s own with the offered potential....
I have used Eagle quite a bit lately. The best part is that it is available for Linux in addition to Windows. Eagle requires some learning, but now I can create a schematic with it faster than I can draw it by hand. The integration between the board layout and schematic is great. Avoid the autorouter. I did 5 different fine pitch surface mount boards with it and they all work quite well, and were not to time consuming to design. I used Olimex to have the PCB's made. They are nearly as cheap as making them yourself, but the quality is good.
I use Linear Technology Switcher Cad for simulation. It can be downloaded for free from their website, but is full of LT parts. It is possible to add your own from models.
Darrell Harmon
I use Linear Technology Switcher Cad for simulation. It can be downloaded for free from their website, but is full of LT parts. It is possible to add your own from models.
Darrell Harmon
Hi all,
Eagle is a very good software, but the cheap version (49 $) have a very low limit in pcb size. If you need more size the prices increase too much.
The only cheap software that I know is Target 3001! the Light version allow until 400 pin with no limits in pcb size, the price is 49 Euros (aprox 49 $), also have a free version with 100 pin limit.
You can find in: www.ibfriedrich.com
You can use the full version in: www.pcb-pool.com the only limit is that you can use your designs for buy your pcb's in pcb-pool.
Also, in the downloads section, you have several software for try.
Happy days,
Raúl Couto
Eagle is a very good software, but the cheap version (49 $) have a very low limit in pcb size. If you need more size the prices increase too much.
The only cheap software that I know is Target 3001! the Light version allow until 400 pin with no limits in pcb size, the price is 49 Euros (aprox 49 $), also have a free version with 100 pin limit.
You can find in: www.ibfriedrich.com
You can use the full version in: www.pcb-pool.com the only limit is that you can use your designs for buy your pcb's in pcb-pool.
Also, in the downloads section, you have several software for try.
Happy days,
Raúl Couto
Eagle Non-Profit Licence
Eagle offers a non-profit license of their standard edition for $125.
This version allows unlimited components, holes, and schematic sheets. Maximum board size is 100mm x 160mm, with four layers maximum. This includes schematic capture, layout, and autorouter.
To purchase this non-profit version, you must sign a form promising to use it for educational or hobbiest use only.
The regular commercial price for the same software is $597. Although if you can live without the autorouter, the price drops to $398. At these prices, there is no restriction on use or form to sign.
For unlimited board size or number of layers, the commercial license is $1197, or $798 without the autorouter.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of anybody's autorouters. It takes more time, but you can get a much better final layout with manual routing.
I've used PADS, OrCAD, and Mentor at work. I use Eagle at home.
Eagle doesn't support circuit simulation, board analysis, group design, or other 'big corporate' features. But for one person designing and laying out a board, I actually prefer Eagle. I was very impressed at its capabilities for a small fraction of the price of the big programs.
I would plan on a solid week of practice to get up to speed on Eagle, more if it's your first time with layout software. (I don't know of any other design program that would be easier to learn.)
A number of operations require the use of user script files.
The parts library is somewhat ackward to manipulate.
It has a number of behaviors that differ from standard Windoze conventions. None of these things are a big deal once you get used to them. (They've promised improved parts library functions in the next release.)
They also sponser an Eagle User newsgroup forum. This is a very helpful place to ask questions and get help.
Software upgrades are free.
I've been very satisfied with this program.
Brian.
Eagle offers a non-profit license of their standard edition for $125.
This version allows unlimited components, holes, and schematic sheets. Maximum board size is 100mm x 160mm, with four layers maximum. This includes schematic capture, layout, and autorouter.
To purchase this non-profit version, you must sign a form promising to use it for educational or hobbiest use only.
The regular commercial price for the same software is $597. Although if you can live without the autorouter, the price drops to $398. At these prices, there is no restriction on use or form to sign.
For unlimited board size or number of layers, the commercial license is $1197, or $798 without the autorouter.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of anybody's autorouters. It takes more time, but you can get a much better final layout with manual routing.
I've used PADS, OrCAD, and Mentor at work. I use Eagle at home.
Eagle doesn't support circuit simulation, board analysis, group design, or other 'big corporate' features. But for one person designing and laying out a board, I actually prefer Eagle. I was very impressed at its capabilities for a small fraction of the price of the big programs.
I would plan on a solid week of practice to get up to speed on Eagle, more if it's your first time with layout software. (I don't know of any other design program that would be easier to learn.)
A number of operations require the use of user script files.
The parts library is somewhat ackward to manipulate.
It has a number of behaviors that differ from standard Windoze conventions. None of these things are a big deal once you get used to them. (They've promised improved parts library functions in the next release.)
They also sponser an Eagle User newsgroup forum. This is a very helpful place to ask questions and get help.
Software upgrades are free.
I've been very satisfied with this program.
Brian.
THANKS
You guys rock!
Just wanted to say thanks again, and I really appreciate the detailed replies. Sounds like Eagle is the way to go. I have noticed that non-profit full version for $125 also. It definetly seems like the way to go. It seems like a very reasonable price, IMO. I was expected something in the $1000 range for even a basic package.
After Christmas, we'll see how the bank account looks - $125 shouldn't be too hard to swing.
Because I am totally new to the PCB layout idea, I have another stupid question. Is the "initial layout" done in some sort of schematic design with pinouts? Is this type of program included with Eagle? Or is there an easier way? I see that several of you recommend not using auto-layout... but I would still need to do a schematic layout with pinouts just to keep everything straight in my head
- Can anyone relate?
You guys rock!
Just wanted to say thanks again, and I really appreciate the detailed replies. Sounds like Eagle is the way to go. I have noticed that non-profit full version for $125 also. It definetly seems like the way to go. It seems like a very reasonable price, IMO. I was expected something in the $1000 range for even a basic package.
After Christmas, we'll see how the bank account looks - $125 shouldn't be too hard to swing.
Because I am totally new to the PCB layout idea, I have another stupid question. Is the "initial layout" done in some sort of schematic design with pinouts? Is this type of program included with Eagle? Or is there an easier way? I see that several of you recommend not using auto-layout... but I would still need to do a schematic layout with pinouts just to keep everything straight in my head
- Can anyone relate?I'm new to PCB programs too, but you need to start with the schematic program included with Eagle to generate a netlist (list of connections). After creating the schematic, Eagle will "capture" the schematic and place all components and connections in the PCB PCB layout portion of the software. All connections will be represented by a series of overlapping lines called a "ratsnest." You can then rearrange the components and draw traces or autoroute. I'm sure others who are more experienced can correct/expand on what I've said.
Stu
Stu
I actually don't see the need to buy the non-profit version of Eagle. It barely does more than the free version of Eagle. The only advantage I see is non-profit version does 4 layers, while the free version does 2 layers only. The board size limit is almost the same in both versions.
I use the free version on Linux. I like it except the library is limited, and the library editor is painful to use.
I use the free version on Linux. I like it except the library is limited, and the library editor is painful to use.
The free version allows a maximum 100mm x 80mm board size with two layers. You are also limited to only one schematic sheet. (Although you can make this sheet insanely large. This is fine for panning around on the screen, but can be a problem if you want to print something out.)
The $125 non-profit 'standard' version allows a maximum 100mm x 160mm board size (double the free version) with four layers. You can have up to 99 schematic sheets. Otherwise, the features are identical.
The free version is probably adequate for most DAC designs. If you're doing a power supply or amplifier design, then even the standard version's 100mm x 160mm size limit can quickly become an issue, because of large components.
I agree that the library is a pain to learn. They're supposed to implement a major improvement in the next release (we'll have to see it). Once you get up to speed and develop some habits, the library isn't so bad. (There are some user scripts on Eagle's website that other users have written that are very helpful at automating tedious procedures.)
Personally, I highly prefer to make all of my library components myself. If I use a predefined part, I copy it into one of my personal libraries and check it as thoroughly as if I was making the part from scratch. I haven't found any errors in the library that comes with Eagle, but I think this personal habit is still a good idea. The first design takes the longest because every little part is new. Subsequent designs usually only require a few additional new parts.
I would recommend that anybody considering Eagle start with the freeware version. This way you can learn to use it and discover if you'll be able to get what you want out of it. If you do end up purchasing an expanded version, you'll only need to put in a license file from a floppy disk without having to reload the program. You'll be able to continue to use any library parts, schematics, or board layouts that you've started.
Regards,
Brian.
The $125 non-profit 'standard' version allows a maximum 100mm x 160mm board size (double the free version) with four layers. You can have up to 99 schematic sheets. Otherwise, the features are identical.
The free version is probably adequate for most DAC designs. If you're doing a power supply or amplifier design, then even the standard version's 100mm x 160mm size limit can quickly become an issue, because of large components.
I agree that the library is a pain to learn. They're supposed to implement a major improvement in the next release (we'll have to see it). Once you get up to speed and develop some habits, the library isn't so bad. (There are some user scripts on Eagle's website that other users have written that are very helpful at automating tedious procedures.)
Personally, I highly prefer to make all of my library components myself. If I use a predefined part, I copy it into one of my personal libraries and check it as thoroughly as if I was making the part from scratch. I haven't found any errors in the library that comes with Eagle, but I think this personal habit is still a good idea. The first design takes the longest because every little part is new. Subsequent designs usually only require a few additional new parts.
I would recommend that anybody considering Eagle start with the freeware version. This way you can learn to use it and discover if you'll be able to get what you want out of it. If you do end up purchasing an expanded version, you'll only need to put in a license file from a floppy disk without having to reload the program. You'll be able to continue to use any library parts, schematics, or board layouts that you've started.
Regards,
Brian.
Hi all,
If you finally have the intention of buy a professional software, and not a 'limited' or 'student' version of a program, please, first try 'Proteus' in: www.labcenter.co.uk.
For me are the more logical sofware for design schemes and pcb's, you can download a demo of the professional software, and a free package of the 'Lite' version.
If you decide buy the professional package you have a 'Starter' version for 500 pin, with a cost of 150 Sterling (250$?).
Perhaps is best wait a bit time, the version 6 are anounced, but surelly you can update. Also you can upgrade to more perfomant versions.
Proteus also include simulation, but I don't know none integrated software that made all well so, for simulation, try TinaPRO 6 in: www.tina.com.
This are my second preferred software for simulation, my first is SIMetrix, but is very expensive.
Tina is easy of use and have a version 'Standard' for aprox. 200$?
Finally, have any months, I have intended of made a 'standard' program for design for diyaudio, and I have proposal: 'Csieda 4.0', the reason is that have a free version up to 250 pin, and include schemes, pcb's and simulation. My intention are that the interchange of files are more easy if all use the same software, but have very little succes.
If you like try this program, if 250 pin suffix for you, please, send me a address of snail mail and I send you a copy of the free CD-ROM.
I hope any of this can be useful for you.
Happy days,
Raúl Couto
If you finally have the intention of buy a professional software, and not a 'limited' or 'student' version of a program, please, first try 'Proteus' in: www.labcenter.co.uk.
For me are the more logical sofware for design schemes and pcb's, you can download a demo of the professional software, and a free package of the 'Lite' version.
If you decide buy the professional package you have a 'Starter' version for 500 pin, with a cost of 150 Sterling (250$?).
Perhaps is best wait a bit time, the version 6 are anounced, but surelly you can update. Also you can upgrade to more perfomant versions.
Proteus also include simulation, but I don't know none integrated software that made all well so, for simulation, try TinaPRO 6 in: www.tina.com.
This are my second preferred software for simulation, my first is SIMetrix, but is very expensive.
Tina is easy of use and have a version 'Standard' for aprox. 200$?
Finally, have any months, I have intended of made a 'standard' program for design for diyaudio, and I have proposal: 'Csieda 4.0', the reason is that have a free version up to 250 pin, and include schemes, pcb's and simulation. My intention are that the interchange of files are more easy if all use the same software, but have very little succes.
If you like try this program, if 250 pin suffix for you, please, send me a address of snail mail and I send you a copy of the free CD-ROM.
I hope any of this can be useful for you.
Happy days,
Raúl Couto
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