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Old 3rd December 2002, 09:39 AM   #1
Electrons are yellow and more is better!
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Default The top secret public KWAK-CLOCK

I'm a little bit puzzled about Elso's strategy in spreading the knowledge of his efforts. Why discuss a design in public (in detail) and then distribute the schematics by email but not publish it here? What's the catch?

I think the spirit of www.diyaudio.com is to discuss things freely. If a design is a secret I think the discussion should also be secret if the designer itself is involved.

I have also put many hours in doing the pcb's for my designs but everything is published, including the pcb layout. But the limit for me is the gerber files. Those who want to copy can do that but they have to work for it.
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Old 3rd December 2002, 10:13 AM   #2
A'af is offline A'af  Indonesia
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And how about Nelson's strategy you think? , perhaps Elso like personal touch with every person join this forum, s/he is very nice and very kindfull help I got, so what's the problem, I can get your points, Long Live DIY.....

cheers,
Datoek Jacques

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Old 3rd December 2002, 10:53 AM   #3
dhaen is offline dhaen  Europe
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Since it's his intelectual property, Elso can do what he wants. He's the one who's put the work in.
It's clearly not secret, otherwise he wouldn't be discussing it, so the forum's spirit isn't broken.
He does have a little more control this way. Perhaps he insists on non-disclosure? Just a guess. I might do that if I wanted to reserve the option of commercially exploiting a design, or to save someone else from claiming it as their own.
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Old 3rd December 2002, 10:54 AM   #4
halojoy is offline halojoy  Sweden
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Default Personally I can't help wonder this myself

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
I'm a little bit puzzled about Elso's strategy in spreading the knowledge of his efforts. Why discuss a design in public (in detail) and then distribute the schematics by email but not publish it here? What's the catch?

I think the spirit of www.diyaudio.com is to discuss things freely. If a design is a secret I think the discussion should also be secret if the designer itself is involved.

I have also put many hours in doing the pcb's for my designs but everything is published, including the pcb layout. But the limit for me is the gerber files. Those who want to copy can do that but they have to work for it.
Anyone can be puzzled by the doings of other peoples. God knows how many times have been puzzled.
But we are all different, with different backgrounds,
personalities, motives and in experiences of the past. Yes even genetically.

I would certainly like everyone to do things my way,
as this is the way I have found to be the best.
But here comes my tolerance for other human beings into the picture.
As well as I can do different from case to case
there are no given set of rules for what is right and wrong.
There is however one principal
that do apply to situations where interaction between individuals
are taking place.

"To try to avoid to do things that obviously are so bad or hurtful for whom you interact with, that those things are better UNDONE"

To put a question here in an honest
and careful way
is a nice and friendly way to interact
within this community.

this is what peranders has done
At least in my opinion /halojoy

And as I also think that I know a little
about Elso's way to say things
He will in the same friendly way
present you/us with a reply.
It might not be an answer to all our different wonderings
but it will be the answer that the person
Elso Kwak, for the moment,
like to present to this audience.

so I wait
and I say: RESPECT RESPECT RESPECT
and once more R E S P E C T
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Old 3rd December 2002, 10:59 AM   #5
Electrons are yellow and more is better!
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Quote:
Originally posted by A'af
And how about Nelson's strategy you think?
I think Nelson is rather special around here. Very kind and with clear motives.
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Old 3rd December 2002, 11:09 AM   #6
A'af is offline A'af  Indonesia
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perhaps we all hear are special,

"never satisfied with mass market product"

the one and only motives I trust

cheers,
Datoek Jacques

"single ended, single driver, single minded"
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Old 3rd December 2002, 11:33 AM   #7
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Cool KWAK-CLOCK

Hi All,
Peranders what are you so excited about?. I do remember you found the Kwak-Clock nothing special.

A'af & dhaen you are quite right. I like the personal touch and contact by e-mail. Also you get the latest improved version. Yes I put a tremendous amount of work into the design and want it to keep my own intellectual property. If someone else is going to use my design commercially I consider that as a theft of intellectual property. Also the email exchanges I had led to improvements of the design and very nice friendly contacts all over the world. After posting the schematic on a public forum I will have no control whatsoever.

A'af, I am a "he" (male)

Please note:
<B><I>The KWAK-CLOCK design is the intellectual property of Elso Kwak. Commercial use is NOT authorized. (C) Elso Kwak. You may use it for a Do It Yourself project.
</B></I>

Please don't spoil the fun, or I will never publish, post, or e-mail any schematic again!

Halojoy, I have read your post three times. It is overwhelming friendly of tone. I am afraid my post is not. Thanks!
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Old 3rd December 2002, 12:02 PM   #8
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Default Elso's strategy

I completely agree with Elso in not publishing a schematic here. A design for something like this is beyond all but small handful of the members here. It will be second guessed by the few here do understand how an oscillator circuit works, but do not have the patience to and ability to build and hear the differences between different designs. This same rational holds for other subjects here as well such as solder, capacitor, wire, and resistor sonics. I think the people with the experience, background theory, and listening skills are bored with the laziness and attitude of many of the forum members. The so called experts with engineering degrees refuse to listen to anything that doesn't fit thier pet theory and very limited listening and design experience. A perfect example is the non over sampling DACs that sound extremely good but send the so called DAC "experts" into a frenzy of disbelief (including a self proclaimed digital audio expert here on the forum)

The tweakers who what to be amplifier designers over night with out even bothering to learn the basics of circuit theory also amaze me. At least the one with over 1500 post finaly had sense enough to run away. Very few here seem to build anything or go to the reference links posted on this web site to learn anything. I am still waiting for the great resistor listening test and expect to be waiting this time next year. The number of questions about the Pass labs stuff that could be answered by reading half a dozen of Mr. Pass's articles is frightening. Mr. Pass and Herr Borbely have both written outstanding articles on audio design and have the commercial success to back up what they say. How many here have read them? No, people had rather get advice here from perple with absolutely no real credentials as good audio designers. I think I will stick to the opinions of someone with a proven track record outside this forum.

If Elso wants to limit his audience to the few that might actually build it, more power to him.
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Old 3rd December 2002, 01:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: KWAK-CLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Hi All,
Peranders what are you so excited about?. I do remember you found the Kwak-Clock nothing special.
I was just only a little bit puzzled, not excited.

Your last statement, yes not _very_ special. I don't think you can get a patent for it but still, I don't want to take it away from you and not spoil your fun but I think also that you have not so much to loose if you set up a homepage with your stuff. I think in fact you can gain.

You could do the same thing as Rod Elliott, publish the schematic but not the layout. I don't remember if you sold pcb's but if you do much of your "the intellectual property" lays in the pcb traces since layout design is essential when we talk oscillators.
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Old 3rd December 2002, 03:52 PM   #10
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It doesn't take much effort to fire off an email to Elso for a copy of the schematic. I don't see what the big deal is here.

The only bad thing about the email distribution is that it is more difficult to keep up to date with the current version of the clock. If new versions were posted on the forum, or even mailed to a list of people who have expressed interest, it would be easier to keep up. As it is, I've built the clock, but I believe there is a newer version already. It would have been nice to know that when I was working on it.

While I'm talking about the clock, I should mention that I very much appreciate Elso's efforts, and I am glad that he shares them, regardless of the method he uses. Many of us have benefitted from his careful listening, and I , for one, have great respect for his opinions.

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Old 3rd December 2002, 04:14 PM   #11
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Smile KWAK-CLOCK

Hi Sparhawk,
Thanks for the kind words.
All earlier versions of my clock can be brought up to date with minimal effort and parts, not considering the powersupplies.
I have thought about the e-mail list, but my computer crashed in April this year and I lost all e-mailaddresses, helas.
Looking forward to your e-mail,
Best regards,
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Old 3rd December 2002, 04:36 PM   #12
BrianGT is offline BrianGT  United States
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Default Re: KWAK-CLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Elso Kwak
Hi Sparhawk,
Thanks for the kind words.
All earlier versions of my clock can be brought up to date with minimal effort and parts, not considering the powersupplies.
I have thought about the e-mail list, but my computer crashed in April this year and I lost all e-mailaddresses, helas.
Looking forward to your e-mail,
Best regards,
Elso, thank you for your efforts on your clock designs. I see nothing wrong with not publically posting your designs, and find your current approach to be working rather well. The best part about it is that it lessens the confusion about what is the newest version of your design, and the personal aspect of the communication works for me.

Thanks,

--
Brian
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Old 3rd December 2002, 04:37 PM   #13
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Default Lifting The Bushell.....

Elso, is it pertinant to post your current state of the art circuit, along with a tutorial giving explanations and your experinces that have resulted in the present realization ?.
Fine details like capacitor types etc like Phred says do not need to be given - this can be provided in a kit distributed by you, but your overview I am sure would be great and appreciated benefit to the DIY community in general.

Regards, Eric.
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Old 5th December 2002, 02:37 AM   #14
A'af is offline A'af  Indonesia
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Hmmm, I know but not sure, for another sure, I got your clock design w/ "ver 2.0" is this the latest design, for nice companion Thx

cheers,
Datoek Jacques

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Old 5th December 2002, 04:08 AM   #15
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Of course, the physists that developed the Atom Bomb thought that that should also be discussed freely....Others didn't think so and they went to great lengths to see that it wasn't.
Mark
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