Hi all,
This may be a silly question, but since I'm going to builld my first DAC, I would like your input on what kind of wire is appropriate for this application. Should I use a different kind of wire for those that carry digital versus analogue signal? What guage? Is silver wire just hype? Can someone name some high quality wires from a particular manufacturer?
Another question is, are there solders that don't contain lead (just for health reasons)? What are some high quality solders you recommend? I know of one solder that is a copper alloy (no lead and no silver, I think) by those who make those Audiopoints footers. Any thoughts?
http://www.audiopoints.com/Riehlcopper.HTML
Thanks.
This may be a silly question, but since I'm going to builld my first DAC, I would like your input on what kind of wire is appropriate for this application. Should I use a different kind of wire for those that carry digital versus analogue signal? What guage? Is silver wire just hype? Can someone name some high quality wires from a particular manufacturer?
Another question is, are there solders that don't contain lead (just for health reasons)? What are some high quality solders you recommend? I know of one solder that is a copper alloy (no lead and no silver, I think) by those who make those Audiopoints footers. Any thoughts?
http://www.audiopoints.com/Riehlcopper.HTML
Thanks.
This is in fact very good question. Only a few if any pay attention to hook-up wiring. Silver loaded solder is also good thing to use.
Try solid core wire for a start. Avoid multi strand (litz) wire. Experiment with ribbons - cut them yourself - just dont use scissors.
Pure solid core copper sounds very good for general purposes – with a transistor gear in particular.
Silver and valve gear is match made in haven.
Pure silver ribbons, annealed sound by far the best. Difficult to obtain and anneal.
If you work with copper - use copper loaded or silver loaded solder - no lead.
If you work with silver - use silver loaded solder only.
Extreme_Boky
PS
The difference pure silver ribbons make when used as input wiring / input hook-up wiring is amazing. It is important to cut - off any connection between RCA's and pcb and feed the signal only via ribbons to switch / pot or whatever... Using this technique, you are virtually getting rid-of any capacitance / inductance introduced by (HORIBLE!!!) PCB tracks’ proximity to ground plane, and to each other. This is one of the most cost effective mods I do in amps and pre-amps – on a budget.
Try solid core wire for a start. Avoid multi strand (litz) wire. Experiment with ribbons - cut them yourself - just dont use scissors.
Pure solid core copper sounds very good for general purposes – with a transistor gear in particular.
Silver and valve gear is match made in haven.
Pure silver ribbons, annealed sound by far the best. Difficult to obtain and anneal.
If you work with copper - use copper loaded or silver loaded solder - no lead.
If you work with silver - use silver loaded solder only.
Extreme_Boky
PS
The difference pure silver ribbons make when used as input wiring / input hook-up wiring is amazing. It is important to cut - off any connection between RCA's and pcb and feed the signal only via ribbons to switch / pot or whatever... Using this technique, you are virtually getting rid-of any capacitance / inductance introduced by (HORIBLE!!!) PCB tracks’ proximity to ground plane, and to each other. This is one of the most cost effective mods I do in amps and pre-amps – on a budget.
I get the silver ribbons and solder from a friend of mine. He makes cables and interconnects. I think he gets this stuff from jewellers. If you search the net look for 4% silver + tin. This solder requires higher temperature soldering iron. Sorry I couldn’t help more. But you should be able to get silver wire / ribbons from jewellers.
For the start try solid core copper wire. Remove the insulation and feed the bare wire through plastic sleaving with much bigger diameter. Always use very light twist between + and – (ground). Try to avoid shield as much as you can.
The density of those twists can influence the sound: tighter twists with more of them per length make sound less spacious and tighter.
Extreme_Boky
For the start try solid core copper wire. Remove the insulation and feed the bare wire through plastic sleaving with much bigger diameter. Always use very light twist between + and – (ground). Try to avoid shield as much as you can.
The density of those twists can influence the sound: tighter twists with more of them per length make sound less spacious and tighter.
Extreme_Boky
Im a bit of a noob myself, but Im not sure I understand how the quality of cable could effect a digital signal, unless there was significant loss of bits occuring with lower quality, I would think that they both transfer the data, in bits, with no difference in quality.
</runnonsentance>
I can understand how making a switch that completely disconnects RCA etc would help, but is there really enough bit loss to make quality digital cables worth it?
Thanks for helping us noobs.
EDIT: Also, would you recommend using lead-free solder for all solder joints in preamps/dacs/amps etc?
</runnonsentance>
I can understand how making a switch that completely disconnects RCA etc would help, but is there really enough bit loss to make quality digital cables worth it?
Thanks for helping us noobs.
EDIT: Also, would you recommend using lead-free solder for all solder joints in preamps/dacs/amps etc?
MGH:
I use solid 20gauge UP-OCC copper from partsconneXion.com for analog signal with success. Read the info there.
I also have OCC copper, 24G, that I received as a gift. I plan to build some IC's with it, three braided per lead.
I use solid silver, 20G wire, for digital hookup, as I can't get anything better (unshielded I'm affraid). This wire was purchased at homegrownaudio.com
Solid silver v/s solid OCC copper: silver is extremelly detailed and has black soundstage, BUT if you have any problem with your gear it will show: noise, weack bass, etc. Also it tends to sound cold with SS.
OCC copper is nearly as detailed as silver but has a very coherent and colorfull presentation. It is a pitty that not many people is using this copper.
I hope this helps.
M.
I use solid 20gauge UP-OCC copper from partsconneXion.com for analog signal with success. Read the info there.
I also have OCC copper, 24G, that I received as a gift. I plan to build some IC's with it, three braided per lead.
I use solid silver, 20G wire, for digital hookup, as I can't get anything better (unshielded I'm affraid). This wire was purchased at homegrownaudio.com
Solid silver v/s solid OCC copper: silver is extremelly detailed and has black soundstage, BUT if you have any problem with your gear it will show: noise, weack bass, etc. Also it tends to sound cold with SS.
OCC copper is nearly as detailed as silver but has a very coherent and colorfull presentation. It is a pitty that not many people is using this copper.
I hope this helps.
M.
For buying wire, I'd recommend having a look at Ebay too, you can often find mil spec 'cabling' on there at prices that make experimentation feasable. Especially from the US.
...and fair play if you have the patience to experiment
As for what to look for (and personally I'm lousy at hearing and/or describing any difference) Have a google for 'skin effect' theres a good paper from St-Andrews Uni that comes up on the first results page. For me its clear - many strands of insulated, highly conductive, non magnetic conductors.
I guess digital signals are high frequencies and require different properties to Analogue audio cables. (or not, depending on what you're looking for)
anyone any ideas on how to neatly terminate ribbon cable and get the signal where it needs to be? hmmm tricky.
Andy
...and fair play if you have the patience to experiment
As for what to look for (and personally I'm lousy at hearing and/or describing any difference) Have a google for 'skin effect' theres a good paper from St-Andrews Uni that comes up on the first results page. For me its clear - many strands of insulated, highly conductive, non magnetic conductors.
I guess digital signals are high frequencies and require different properties to Analogue audio cables. (or not, depending on what you're looking for)
anyone any ideas on how to neatly terminate ribbon cable and get the signal where it needs to be? hmmm tricky.
Andy
Dear Nietzsche...I mean, dear phn:
I've seen money wasted in far more dangerous or stupid things.
If you are blessed with "don't-hear-a-difference-ears", then I envy you. You are saving big money (but also you're losing half the enjoyment).
We take note about your opinion. No need to insist about that.
Sincerelly yours...
Mauricio
No, you love it!
Since it's not your money...
I've seen money wasted in far more dangerous or stupid things.
I don't believe, I hear.
What is Stereophile?
If you are blessed with "don't-hear-a-difference-ears", then I envy you. You are saving big money (but also you're losing half the enjoyment).
We take note about your opinion. No need to insist about that.
Sincerelly yours...
Mauricio
the teflon tubing isn't a lot of money:
16gauge $0.40/ft
18gauge $0.35/ft
20gauge $0.30/ft
at michael percy.
it would be a lot more money to recommend him buying nordost cable, with virtual air dielectric (PTFE mono-filament).
mono-filament can be found here, along with THV tubing Nordost uses on their power cabling:
http://www.zeusinc.com/monofilament_sizes.asp
16gauge $0.40/ft
18gauge $0.35/ft
20gauge $0.30/ft
at michael percy.
it would be a lot more money to recommend him buying nordost cable, with virtual air dielectric (PTFE mono-filament).
mono-filament can be found here, along with THV tubing Nordost uses on their power cabling:
http://www.zeusinc.com/monofilament_sizes.asp
I'm collecting info and opinions from those more experienced. Eventhough you may call silver wire "exotic", the amount of money involved in buying several feet of silver wire for a DIY DAC project is $10-15 USD, which is minimal. So if people claim to hear a difference using different wires, spending $10 to see if I hear a difference isn't really wasting money IMO - actually educational. I tend not to hold people who adhere to strict dogma in high regard, especially those reviewers in Stereofool...I mean Stereophile.
I believe engineering types who strictly go by measurements are really doing a disservice as much as those in Stereophile. Measurements don't tell the whole story do they? If it did, we wouldn't need opinions or reviews. There is long held dogma that we can't "hear" 30 KHz, but actually our neurons can perceive ultrasonic freq as shown by recent publications in the scientific literature (I'm not going to give specific publications but one of them came from CalTech - do a google or PubMed search if you are so inclined).
I don't want to get off track here. I can hear differences in interconnects and cables - whether this holds up in a double blinded test, I don't know 'cause I never tried. But that's another can of worms I don't want to get into.
In the end, it's all about enjoyment of music. If I enjoy, I don't mind spending a little extra, exotic or not.
I believe engineering types who strictly go by measurements are really doing a disservice as much as those in Stereophile. Measurements don't tell the whole story do they? If it did, we wouldn't need opinions or reviews. There is long held dogma that we can't "hear" 30 KHz, but actually our neurons can perceive ultrasonic freq as shown by recent publications in the scientific literature (I'm not going to give specific publications but one of them came from CalTech - do a google or PubMed search if you are so inclined).
I don't want to get off track here. I can hear differences in interconnects and cables - whether this holds up in a double blinded test, I don't know 'cause I never tried. But that's another can of worms I don't want to get into.
In the end, it's all about enjoyment of music. If I enjoy, I don't mind spending a little extra, exotic or not.
Check out this Audionote site. Some of the kits seem to use silver wire with oversized Teflon tubing to get some of that "air" dielectric effect.
http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/extreme.html
http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/extreme.html
Dear phn:
UP-OCC copper, 20AWG, is US$0.69 per foot at partsconneXion.com (and here US$ is getting cheaper and cheaper)
I don't think price could be called exotic.
OCC technology could be called exotic, though: they claim average copper cristal size is 120m
http://www.partsconnexion.com/crystalwire.htm
(12AWG solid copper is US$1.26, good for PS)
With love...
Mauricio
UP-OCC copper, 20AWG, is US$0.69 per foot at partsconneXion.com (and here US$ is getting cheaper and cheaper)
I don't think price could be called exotic.
OCC technology could be called exotic, though: they claim average copper cristal size is 120m
http://www.partsconnexion.com/crystalwire.htm
(12AWG solid copper is US$1.26, good for PS)
With love...
Mauricio
Dear MGH:
My highly regarded Stevens&Billington attenuation TX are wired with OCC copper along with the hookup wire for the TVC. I have made some analog IC's with it and I can say they doesn't sound to bad for the money!
You can deprive it from the (PVC?) cover and add your own teflon tubing
Burn-in time, allow around 2-3 days.
Please post your impression if you get some wire
Good luck.
M
My highly regarded Stevens&Billington attenuation TX are wired with OCC copper along with the hookup wire for the TVC. I have made some analog IC's with it and I can say they doesn't sound to bad for the money!
You can deprive it from the (PVC?) cover and add your own teflon tubing
Burn-in time, allow around 2-3 days.
Please post your impression if you get some wire
Good luck.
M
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