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Old 13th March 2006, 10:00 AM   #1
Lyra is offline Lyra  Norway
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Question Dynamic Range...?

Tried to ask this question in another tread ( http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...346#post865346 ) but never got any answers regarding this.
(I also tried to search but I didn' find anything relevant info regarding this.)

Would I hear a lot of difference if I change an AD-converter with 107dB dynamic range (A-veighted) with one that has only 94dB...?
(The prior one is obsolete, and I am in big need of a replacement ADC)

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Lyra
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Old 13th March 2006, 11:27 AM   #2
Lyra is offline Lyra  Norway
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PS: I do know what dynamic range is ...but I am not sure how much influence this 13dB difference will affect the sound...

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Lyra
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Old 13th March 2006, 12:08 PM   #3
phn is offline phn  Sweden
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I don't have answers. Only questions.

How about the rest of your system?

Do you expect to get 94 db out of a CD?

Last I looked an analogue tape has about 65 db. Since all recordings are transfered to analogue tape and then back to a digital storage format, anything beyond 65 db should be smoke screens and mirrors. Welcome to the sideshow act known as "high-end audio." P.T. Barnum smiles.
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Old 13th March 2006, 01:07 PM   #4
Lyra is offline Lyra  Norway
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Quote:
Originally posted by phn
I don't have answers. Only questions.

How about the rest of your system?

Do you expect to get 94 db out of a CD?

Last I looked an analogue tape has about 65 db. Since all recordings are transfered to analogue tape and then back to a digital storage format, anything beyond 65 db should be smoke screens and mirrors. Welcome to the sideshow act known as "high-end audio." P.T. Barnum smiles.

I'm not sure if this nessecarily are relevant here...this equipment (Lexicon PCM90...the predecessor for this: http://www.lexiconpro.com/pcm91/details.asp ) is meant used on live productions etc., and I don't know if I need more headroom here...but nothing would be better than if this doesn't matter...

Lyra
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Old 13th March 2006, 02:25 PM   #5
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally posted by phn
Last I looked an analogue tape has about 65 db. Since all recordings are transfered to analogue tape and then back to a digital storage format, anything beyond 65 db should be smoke screens and mirrors. Welcome to the sideshow act known as "high-end audio." P.T. Barnum smiles.
Come on. That's for normal cassatte tapes. Good studio tapes probably have some more dynamic. Also, lots (if not most) of studio's can do digital recording and mixing by now.

Still, if you find modern recordings with more than 30 dB of dynamics, you'll be glad . It's really is something to cry about

like this:

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kglee/m420/hw7/fig7_4c.png

Edit: Image is a bit big, link if better
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Old 13th March 2006, 02:26 PM   #6
phn is offline phn  Sweden
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That changes everything. My fault. Should have checked you link.

Have you tried any pro audio forum? This is all I have: Swedish forum
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Old 13th March 2006, 02:32 PM   #7
phn is offline phn  Sweden
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4real, any studio can. But it sounds like cr*p. I wouldn't be surprised if my two Groundhogs CDs were culled from a digital master. It doesn't sound very nice. The problem with digital masters is that they have too much detail.

So what does an analogue master tape have? 70 db? More?

Indeed, modern mass-market CDs are compressed too high. They aren't even stereo. They are basically dual mono, using two almost identical channels. At least they will sound "good" on that old mono FM or AM receiver.
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Old 13th March 2006, 02:39 PM   #8
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally posted by phn
The problem with digital masters is that they have to much detail.
How can you have to much detail

So what does an analogue master tape have? 70 db? More? [/B][/QUOTE]


I think even a few dB more, but that still doesn't say anything about the recored audio of course. It's not more than a tecnical spec, just like with the DAC.
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Old 13th March 2006, 02:50 PM   #9
phn is offline phn  Sweden
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How can the low-resolution transformers of the SET result in clear and detailed highs? How come audioholics' measurements of vinyl show close to 90 db when people say vinyl doesn't have that kind of dynamics?

I know, answering a question with a question isn't very bright. But I just don't have THE answer.

All I know is what people that work with these things tell me. I have never transfered a digital master to an analogue tape in my life.
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Old 13th March 2006, 03:32 PM   #10
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Default Recording dynamic range

There may still be some people using tape for mastering but at the AES and NAMM shows there is no tape in sight. Just 24 bit digital which has 144 db of dynamic range. Here in LA, other than a few boutique houses, I don't know anyone who uses tape any more. Even my technicians with home recording studios are using 96KHz digital at 24 bits.

Then it gets down sampled to 44.1K and 16 bit depth for audio CD.

Only releases of old material done before digital became more or less standard are mastered from tape. Because there is no digital master though it is usual practice to digitize the tapes as well and there are ways to recover some signal down in the noise floor though these are of questionable value


You get 6db of dynamic range for each bit in a sample. Thus 16bits in an audio CD, gives you 96db of dynamic range.

When doing 24bit work, is is possible to get less than 144db if the A/D and D/A converters are not up to the task. Many converters only have analog sections capable of 100 to maybe 115db of dynamic range. Getting it perfectly quiet down to the last of the 24 bits is very difficult as you are getting down to extremely low noise levels.

Going to say a 96db converter from a 110db converter basically means a little more grunge at very low listening levels and a little more low level hiss.


Do CDs made from analog masters sound different than all digital ones. Yes, they do but that is not the subject at hand in this thread.
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