Oh Dear. I'm sorry I can't make a more incomprehensible post, but then I am a newcomer to this Forum.
I reluctantly went over to CDs in the '80s because they didn't get scratched. I always thought the sound over bright and frequently plain distorted.
I was convinced by the discussions here that the problem was in an odd thing called The DAC (Dark And Complicated) which was hidden from us simple folk somewhere in the guts of the CD player and needed to be brought out into the light of day whereupon it would react to the attention by producing a sound to make Angels wet themselves in envy. So, I bought myself a RAKK DAC for Christmas (we all know the best presents are those one buys for oneself) and an El Cheapo Phillips Everything Player with a hole in the back to connect it to.
Now here's the good bit - Kevin Carter,www.kandkaudio.com,
is a gem. Never had service like it and both he and his kit are mightily impressive. Cost me 250 plus bottles of St Emilion mind.
I have a collection of a few hundred CDs from the 80s and 90s.
Two or three sound fabuous, unbelievable, almost like vinyl with a Decca London but the rest sound awful, if possible worse than they did on my old Technics player. It's the same old CD thing, a nasty tizz on violins/female voice as if a bit of metal has got in the works. So what's going on ? I can't believe you guys have cloth ears to a man but CDs do sound awful, even with expensive kit (the rest of it is a Quad 606 driven directly from the RAKK active output stage and a pair of ESL63s with some bass help).
Any ideas ? Has CD format secretly changed in the last 15 years so I'll have to throw all my old stuff away ?
I reluctantly went over to CDs in the '80s because they didn't get scratched. I always thought the sound over bright and frequently plain distorted.
I was convinced by the discussions here that the problem was in an odd thing called The DAC (Dark And Complicated) which was hidden from us simple folk somewhere in the guts of the CD player and needed to be brought out into the light of day whereupon it would react to the attention by producing a sound to make Angels wet themselves in envy. So, I bought myself a RAKK DAC for Christmas (we all know the best presents are those one buys for oneself) and an El Cheapo Phillips Everything Player with a hole in the back to connect it to.
Now here's the good bit - Kevin Carter,www.kandkaudio.com,
is a gem. Never had service like it and both he and his kit are mightily impressive. Cost me 250 plus bottles of St Emilion mind.
I have a collection of a few hundred CDs from the 80s and 90s.
Two or three sound fabuous, unbelievable, almost like vinyl with a Decca London but the rest sound awful, if possible worse than they did on my old Technics player. It's the same old CD thing, a nasty tizz on violins/female voice as if a bit of metal has got in the works. So what's going on ? I can't believe you guys have cloth ears to a man but CDs do sound awful, even with expensive kit (the rest of it is a Quad 606 driven directly from the RAKK active output stage and a pair of ESL63s with some bass help).
Any ideas ? Has CD format secretly changed in the last 15 years so I'll have to throw all my old stuff away ?
stevers said:
Have you tried a mild treble cut ? I have a quad 44 preamp for it's excellent tone controls. Many CD's benefit from a little or even a large treble roll-off IMHO, though I know this is not a fashionable view
A simple and cheap solution is to try putting a 250pf cap from the signal to ground on each channel. Costs almost nothing but can remove some of the treble glare and is easily removed if you don't like it.
There is an interesting parameter for video and rf ADCs "effective number of bits" which is graphed against input frequency. Usually the resolution falls significantly towards the upper frequency limit. Audio ADC specs rarely show this parameter, but most '80s ADCs were nothing like 16 bit by 10KHz input. In addition clock jitter was not a well understood issue back then and digital mixers did not have enough bits of working resolution. The result is gross distortion of the higher harmonics
Jives11, thanks - I was (rather tongue in cheek) going to suggest summat similar on my initial post - I reckon 1000uf is probably needed !!
Pinkmouse, I didn't know that, useful again. Any advance on 1000 uf ??
Are we agreed these 'early' CDs sound awful ?
How I wish I'd not sold my 401/SME/London for a few quid.
I'll probably get banned for heresy on the Digital Channel (and satellite radio sounds awful too, exactly the same over bright tinny distortion. Oddly Classic FM (urgh) sometimes sounds quite good, perhaps when they're not sending supermarket price lists in the gaps between bits or whatever else they get up to.
What about DVD-A - should I be thinking about buying these as replacements ?
Sorry this is a simplistic post but I can't be the only one out there with this problem.
Pinkmouse, I didn't know that, useful again. Any advance on 1000 uf ??
Are we agreed these 'early' CDs sound awful ?
How I wish I'd not sold my 401/SME/London for a few quid.
I'll probably get banned for heresy on the Digital Channel (and satellite radio sounds awful too, exactly the same over bright tinny distortion. Oddly Classic FM (urgh) sometimes sounds quite good, perhaps when they're not sending supermarket price lists in the gaps between bits or whatever else they get up to.
What about DVD-A - should I be thinking about buying these as replacements ?
Sorry this is a simplistic post but I can't be the only one out there with this problem.
I don't have any fundamental issues with 44.1/16 PCM as an audio format; there's no restriction in the format itself that strictly prevents *all* CD's from sounding good.
Some CDs just sound bad. I've got early CDs with lots of hiss, "ugly sounding" treble and other things arising from poor sampling and mastering. Nowadays ADC/DAC design has evolved greatly and I believe recording engineers now have a better "ear for their tools", so I wouldn't judge CDs as a whole by using a 1980's era CD.
But on second thought, I wouldn't judge CD's based on any brand new CD either, especially the RHCP "Californication" CD. If you listen to this CD with a pair of headphones on, I guarantee you'll get angry. The gain is boosted to make the CD as loud as possible, and it clips HARD. I've taken an amplifier apart because of this CD, thinking it was amp trouble! And this has become a bit of a trend, unfortunately.
Some CDs just sound bad. I've got early CDs with lots of hiss, "ugly sounding" treble and other things arising from poor sampling and mastering. Nowadays ADC/DAC design has evolved greatly and I believe recording engineers now have a better "ear for their tools", so I wouldn't judge CDs as a whole by using a 1980's era CD.
But on second thought, I wouldn't judge CD's based on any brand new CD either, especially the RHCP "Californication" CD. If you listen to this CD with a pair of headphones on, I guarantee you'll get angry. The gain is boosted to make the CD as loud as possible, and it clips HARD. I've taken an amplifier apart because of this CD, thinking it was amp trouble! And this has become a bit of a trend, unfortunately.
gmarsh
Im ashamed to say I pulled my ESL63s apart to find the problem. The problem was....there wasn't one. I've listened to CDs on a nice old Meridian CD player and all sorts of others. I don't claim my current system is the best but it's a lot of money's worth. The trouble is that CD's sound awful. I think we may have initially supressed how awful they sound because they are free of clicks and pops but they sound awful. I was brought up by Arthur Radford. He got me to listen to uncompressed recordings off a 15" ps Revox via his amps and speakers. He disliked Quad as "f***ing amateurs" and only really rated the original Decca FFSS vinyl disks. We seem to have lost our way. I see wonderful postings of DAC response curves given(presumably) specially crafted single frequency CD masters. What I hear, compared with early 1960's valve analogue, is rubbish.
Im ashamed to say I pulled my ESL63s apart to find the problem. The problem was....there wasn't one. I've listened to CDs on a nice old Meridian CD player and all sorts of others. I don't claim my current system is the best but it's a lot of money's worth. The trouble is that CD's sound awful. I think we may have initially supressed how awful they sound because they are free of clicks and pops but they sound awful. I was brought up by Arthur Radford. He got me to listen to uncompressed recordings off a 15" ps Revox via his amps and speakers. He disliked Quad as "f***ing amateurs" and only really rated the original Decca FFSS vinyl disks. We seem to have lost our way. I see wonderful postings of DAC response curves given(presumably) specially crafted single frequency CD masters. What I hear, compared with early 1960's valve analogue, is rubbish.
Hi,
My dad's Queen greatest hits album:-
-1981
-Made in Japan
Good music but there is alot of noise on the tracks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Hits_(Queen,_Hollywood)
The later versions will probably be re-mastered tracks.
I'm guessing they didn't have 24bit dac's in the early 1980's.
Is 1981 pre NE5532/4 ?
Cheers,
Ashley.
My dad's Queen greatest hits album:-
-1981
-Made in Japan
Good music but there is alot of noise on the tracks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Hits_(Queen,_Hollywood)
The later versions will probably be re-mastered tracks.
I'm guessing they didn't have 24bit dac's in the early 1980's.
Is 1981 pre NE5532/4 ?
Cheers,
Ashley.
stevers said:
add to that a large number of other compressed CDs - Coldplay's Rush of Blood to the Head is impossible to listen to. Gives me a headache. They do this crap to have those tunes blast louder out of the FM waves or cheap mp3 portables, I guess. Louder=better for untrained ears.
On the other hand - put in something like Pat Metheny Group's "The Way Up" and you can tell where the 44kHz CD medium can really be. I think SACD and other higher rez formats will remain a niche market. A friend with a high end system is selling his SACD player, mostly because he simply cannot find any releases in that format he'd listen to.
that compression thing is not a new thing - been talked about years ago online: http://georgegraham.com/compress.html
and the argument then was - why are they doing that? Radio stations will compress the stuff ANYWAY....
So, why are we listening to this rubbish?
Why are we spending a small fortune (I re-iterate 250 bottles of fine wine) on something to try to make crap digestible ?
Why does this forum exist if the fundamental reason for its existence is nonsense ?
Well, I suppose Christianity has got away with it for 2000 years; hopefully the ADCD won't last that long.
Why are we spending a small fortune (I re-iterate 250 bottles of fine wine) on something to try to make crap digestible ?
Why does this forum exist if the fundamental reason for its existence is nonsense ?
Well, I suppose Christianity has got away with it for 2000 years; hopefully the ADCD won't last that long.
stevers said:
actually here is where we probably differ (not the christian bit - am with you on that). Most of my Cd's are quite listenable. I have no LP's and while my father had the classic SME/Shure/Thorens setup, I have no great romantic yearning for analogue. True it did have tactile appeal and a wider freq response, but I also remember the agony of clicks appearing in the middle of much loved pieces.
So now I find most CD's I listen to (Hyperion, Naxos, EMI) are very fine. I agree that some early CD's have high frequencies you can shave with, but I just tune out the high end. DG are particular offenders. As a sweeping statement most CD's I now listen to sound good to me , which is a mixture of classical (old & new recordings) Jazz and some modern pieces. There are exceptions , but , as I recall , there were exceptions in the LP era. I remember swapping 4 copies of the Star Wars LP soundtrack before I found one that would even track properly, and then it wasn't great. Personally I don't see DVD-A or SACD being anything more than audiophile curiosities like "direct to disk masters" and "quadraphonic". The next mass format from CD is very clear - it's iPod. Not my choice, just an observation. Audiophiles are not important in the global scale of things.
But but butbutbut
Tune out the high end. Non Christian God Help us!!
I never tuned anything out with a decent 33lp. Yes, dead right, there was some **** but it was mostly a mike in the wrong place or a bad pressing. The tactile bit wasn't important. The sound was. OK there was the same magnum mysterium as one sees on this digital forum but, at least, the end result was what your ears heard rather than the (dubious) output of a spectrum analyser.
So far, sadly, I see a lot of anoraks failing to listen to what comes out of the speakers. A classic quote 'designing with your ears ... that's an original idea'. ********. (Sorry, sckolloB) Radford desinged entirely on what the music sounded like.
Tune out the high end. Non Christian God Help us!!
I never tuned anything out with a decent 33lp. Yes, dead right, there was some **** but it was mostly a mike in the wrong place or a bad pressing. The tactile bit wasn't important. The sound was. OK there was the same magnum mysterium as one sees on this digital forum but, at least, the end result was what your ears heard rather than the (dubious) output of a spectrum analyser.
So far, sadly, I see a lot of anoraks failing to listen to what comes out of the speakers. A classic quote 'designing with your ears ... that's an original idea'. ********. (Sorry, sckolloB) Radford desinged entirely on what the music sounded like.
I spent a happy year in Bristol soldering up the STA 25s, STA 15 was a bit constipated and, anyway, Uncle Arf stole it from a Mullard design so he could make some dosh and better amps.
He hated Quad. There are numerous amusing anecdotes but I expect I'll get censored for recounting most of them. His attitude to Walker in general and particularly his choice of capacitors, Hunts, was colourful particularly after an STA 25 with the aforesaid condensors caught fire on soak test and damned nearly wrote off the workshop. Forever after he referred to them as <edited by mod squad> .
He hated Quad. There are numerous amusing anecdotes but I expect I'll get censored for recounting most of them. His attitude to Walker in general and particularly his choice of capacitors, Hunts, was colourful particularly after an STA 25 with the aforesaid condensors caught fire on soak test and damned nearly wrote off the workshop. Forever after he referred to them as <edited by mod squad> .
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.