Nonoz DAC page

[ultranalog]

I still have the opinion that digital filters alter the time resolution, they mix up data in the time domain.

Digital filters do not mix up data. Facts go before opinions.

I have to do more research on the topic but I think that most of the filters used in audio systems have more taps than the 8 you mentioned. In the case of around 30 taps, impulses in the music (snares, piano attacks) get a lot of ripple.

Regardless of the the # of taps, because of the oversampling nature of the filter, the ripple is always less than it would be in non-os. That's the wole point of filtering! I'm not wasting anymore time on it before I see some theoretical backing. You're an EE student, shouldn't be hard to prove if you're right. The rest of us keep with Nyquist and the cosine rules for determining IMD.

Remco

[jean-paul]

Out of arguments error.

Sorry but I am not out of arguments. Theoretical the non os dac's should be crap, but in real life they are not. I am well aware of the things you are saying and I agree technically.

But why do they sound so good then ???

Beter ask Zanden, Audio Note, Marantz and others the same question. Nobody can explain what the reason is they sound so good. Please don't come up that it is commercially good for them, other products create revenue as well.

Why would I need arguments anyhow if sound is OK ? To proove your theoretical and / or educational background ?

good sound from a non os is a contradictio in terminis.

OK, you are right Ultranalog, satisfied ? Talking about a "out of arguments" error...

[ultranalog]

Sorry but I am not out of arguments.

Well, let's have them.

Nobody can explain what the reason is they sound so good
But why do they sound so good then ???

If you're talking about the problems with usual gear, these are pretty easy to explain. But they do not occur in the oversampling filter. You are dismissing a system which you judged listening to the entire system, and blaming the wrong component.

The usual problem with mulitibit
converters is IMD in the I/V conversion.
Jocko made a fine circuit that greatly eliminates it be removing the nullor configuration that causes it.

Non-os is not a solution, it's lowering the clock to lower jitter problems. That's battling symptoms, not eliminating the problem.

Remove the intermodulation mechanism and listen again. It'll sound better. And how inconvenient, it will measure better as well.

Why would I need arguments anyhow if sound is OK ?

To 'make things better'? Isn't that what we all want to do?

Remco

[jean-paul]

Wasn't one of the pretty things of the TDA's and PCM63's that they didn,t suffer from these problems as bad as others do ?

I am very well able to judge my system as well as components thank you.

It'll sound better. And how inconvenient, it will measure better as well.

Please don't think I am one of the "don't measure but listen" zealots. Maybe you got me mixed up with somebody else ?

I think this discussion looses its character and no valuable info will come out anymore. Besides that the discussion should be continued in a new topic since it really doesn't have anything to do anymore with the Nonoz of Fedde's.

[ultranalog]

Wasn't one of the pretty things of the TDA's and PCM63's that they didn,t suffer from these problems as bad as others do ?

Exactly the opposite. The current-outputting multibit dacs need to see 0V at the output or their multiple current sources will mistime, causing spikes that are probably supersonic, but detrimental because they eat up energy and intermodulate easily in an environment filled with audio signals and numerous images.

Please don't think I am one of the "don't measure but listen" zealots.

Yeah, where would I get that idea...

I think this discussion looses its character and no valuable info will come out anymore.

It's not going the way you planned it?

Remco

[jean-paul]

I just don't like the agressiveness you seem to need to "win" your discussion. A discussion IMHO is based on respect.

You win professor, OK ?

[peranders]

Originally posted by fedde
I have made a page about my non-oversampling DAC. If you want to build a simple&cheap DAC that's quite OK have a look at:
http://home.student.utwente.nl/f.s.b...dio/nonoz.html

fedde, forget the ancient DAC's. Why don't you look at the Cheap DAC thread?
Cheap 24/96 DAC with CS43122

NON-OS DAC's are history, why? They will never come back as with tubes. They weren't any good if you compare to modern technology. But if you compared to a cassette tape they sounded splendid!

CS8414 + CS???? why don't you test a 8-pin chip from Crystal?

[ultranalog]

It this the way you planned it ?

No, I had hoped for some discussion based on facts, instead I found yet another non-os adept telling me I just have to listen to it, where I did that a good 5 years ago.

Remco

[peranders]

Why don't you check Rod Elliott's DAC's?

http://sound.westhost.com/project85.htm

[jean-paul]

OK, my last reply:

Try to reverse your own words.

No, I had hoped for some discussion based on facts, instead I found yet another non-os adept telling me I just have to listen to it, where I did that a good 5 years ago.

Like:

No, I had hoped for some discussion based on listening facts instead I found yet another technical engineer telling me I just have to explain it, where others did that 5 years ago.

You see what I mean ?