hi all,
I've purchased a used Denon DCD-S10 a while ago and I'm itching to get it modded. First and foremost, can anyone kindly share with me the service manual for this player? I've called my local Denon Service Center but they no longer have the service manual.
Meanwhile, I'm getting kinda confused when I looked at the DAC and analog output stages. The S10 has 3 types of outputs, fixed RCA, variable RCA (output controlled thru headphone's volume knob) and balanced output.
There are 4x PCM1702 DAC, the Iout of each going into a NEC C4570C dual opamp. However, only one of the dual opamp is used in each case. The output of the C4570C goes to another C4570C (again only one opamp used) which then splits the output to a NEC C4570C and a BA15218. The final NEC C4570C goes out to the fixed RCA output. I'm not sure if that's the right flow, I guess I will have to trace out the entire board.
I'm looking at replacing the opamps as a 1st level mod (with dual opamps to make things easier) perhaps with OPA2227, OPA2228, AD826, AD827 ... Any suggestions?
I've purchased a used Denon DCD-S10 a while ago and I'm itching to get it modded. First and foremost, can anyone kindly share with me the service manual for this player? I've called my local Denon Service Center but they no longer have the service manual.
Meanwhile, I'm getting kinda confused when I looked at the DAC and analog output stages. The S10 has 3 types of outputs, fixed RCA, variable RCA (output controlled thru headphone's volume knob) and balanced output.
There are 4x PCM1702 DAC, the Iout of each going into a NEC C4570C dual opamp. However, only one of the dual opamp is used in each case. The output of the C4570C goes to another C4570C (again only one opamp used) which then splits the output to a NEC C4570C and a BA15218. The final NEC C4570C goes out to the fixed RCA output. I'm not sure if that's the right flow, I guess I will have to trace out the entire board.
I'm looking at replacing the opamps as a 1st level mod (with dual opamps to make things easier) perhaps with OPA2227, OPA2228, AD826, AD827 ... Any suggestions?
hi anatech,
I've modified my PD-S802 and I really like the sound I've got so I'm using that as a reference for the DCD-S10.
I'm impressed with the representation of depth, soundstage and its imaging but the midrange is slightly grainy and body is slightly lacking. Bass is also slightly loose and weak and extension is limited. The decay is not really present. On a whole, the music did not manage to attract me in the way that my S802 did.
I looking to improve the bass, perhaps a smoother midrange sound and probably a sweeter high as well. I'd used the OPA627s (I/V and output stages) in my S802 to great effect and I will probably do so likewise.
What do you think about the sound then?
Rgds,
Marc
I've modified my PD-S802 and I really like the sound I've got so I'm using that as a reference for the DCD-S10.
I'm impressed with the representation of depth, soundstage and its imaging but the midrange is slightly grainy and body is slightly lacking. Bass is also slightly loose and weak and extension is limited. The decay is not really present. On a whole, the music did not manage to attract me in the way that my S802 did.
I looking to improve the bass, perhaps a smoother midrange sound and probably a sweeter high as well. I'd used the OPA627s (I/V and output stages) in my S802 to great effect and I will probably do so likewise.
What do you think about the sound then?
Rgds,
Marc
Noak said:
Congrats on your S10. I've had one for more than 10 years, and I still like it. IMO, the analog circuitry is a weakness with the S10. The signal is simply passing through too many opamps, resistors and capacitors for it's own good. And for the balanced output - and for the variable outputs it gets even worse. One thing is that the path is more complex than needed, another thing is that it gets quite expensive to replace so many opamps and passive compnents.
The first opamp is iv conversion, the second one is + and - addition, the third and forth is buffering combined with filtering if I recall correct.
I bought and installed a class a analog buffer stage on a small pcb together with separate power supply. It has iv capability.
I broke the signal path just after the dacs by removing resistors. And basicaly using the resistor's pcb holes to connect the buffer. Using both dac's for both channels gave me a balanced input to the new buffer stage.
The buffer also has balanced output, so I now have a full balanced solution.
I used a buffer stage from LC Audio, but there are probably other good candidates as well.
I totally replaced the balanced pcb's with neutrik chassis connectors. I also rewired the variable output to the new pcb.
It works very well.
Edit: I've also installed a clock upgrade with separate ps.
hi BerntR,
I really like the looks of the Denon and I do agree that the signal has passed through too many opamps. Only a single opamp of the C4570C is used and I think it's a compromise between cost and sound quality.
Currently, I do not have the intention of using another 3rd-party analog stage so I would try my best to optimise the analog stage. Thanks for confirming what I suspect with regards to the I/V, adder and output buffer stages.
BTW, there are 2 oddly shaped capacitors placed between the Elna Silmics with something "SA....". Do you know what that might be?
I really like the looks of the Denon and I do agree that the signal has passed through too many opamps. Only a single opamp of the C4570C is used and I think it's a compromise between cost and sound quality.
Currently, I do not have the intention of using another 3rd-party analog stage so I would try my best to optimise the analog stage. Thanks for confirming what I suspect with regards to the I/V, adder and output buffer stages.
BTW, there are 2 oddly shaped capacitors placed between the Elna Silmics with something "SA....". Do you know what that might be?
Noak said:
Noak,
I have the service manual right in front of me now. I haven't looked at the board itself lately, but I guess the Silmic's are series coupled at the output?
The following series are parallell coupled at the output:
1) 470+470 (silmic's i presume)
2) 2,2+2,2 (physically between the two pairs of silmics). If you have multi voltage model, these can be 4,7+4,7.
3) 1 (asian model only)
4)0,01 (asian model only)
So it's basically a dc block with large caps bypassed by small value caps.
btw, the IC 309 and 310 are not directly in the signal path. I suspect they handle high freq. filtering, but am not sure.
hi BerntR,
Yes, the Silmics are series coupled and thanks for sharing the information. You are very lucky to have the service manual. I've tried every source I know of but they replied that it is no longer available.
The caps I was referring to weren't Silmics, they look like elongated hexagons, something I've never come across till now.
Some questions for you:
1. The Iout of PCM1702J goes to a single opamp of the C4570C and the other is left un-used, is that right?
2. Outputs from 2 of the I/V stages are added together using another C4570C, again only one of the opamp is used and not both, is that correct as well?
3. The output from the "adder" splits to 2 different dual opamps, a BA15218 and a C4570C. Any idea why BA15218 was used instead?
If you don't mind, I'll be asking more questions later on but it's getting late here in Singapore so I'm off to bed now.
I can also be reached at marc.noak@gmail.com
Cheers and Thanks Again!!!
Marc
Yes, the Silmics are series coupled and thanks for sharing the information. You are very lucky to have the service manual. I've tried every source I know of but they replied that it is no longer available.
The caps I was referring to weren't Silmics, they look like elongated hexagons, something I've never come across till now.
Some questions for you:
1. The Iout of PCM1702J goes to a single opamp of the C4570C and the other is left un-used, is that right?
2. Outputs from 2 of the I/V stages are added together using another C4570C, again only one of the opamp is used and not both, is that correct as well?
3. The output from the "adder" splits to 2 different dual opamps, a BA15218 and a C4570C. Any idea why BA15218 was used instead?
If you don't mind, I'll be asking more questions later on but it's getting late here in Singapore so I'm off to bed now.
I can also be reached at marc.noak@gmail.com
Cheers and Thanks Again!!!
Marc
Noak said:
1) correct
2)correct
3)The 4570 is the one that's in the signal path. I suspect that the 5128 is used for hf filtering. (The service manual says 5128 not 15218). Do you have a later model?
BTW, do you have the multi voltage model? There are slightly different opamps in the european and japanese model.
Since that's the case, I guess I would change the 4570 to OPA627, only eight of them anyway, as I like the sound of the 627s and I do have some spares.
Only thing to do I need to do how is to create a small adapter board to accomodate the single-opamp-to-dual-opamps pin layout. Another way, of course, is to get the Brown-Dog adapters.
Only thing to do I need to do how is to create a small adapter board to accomodate the single-opamp-to-dual-opamps pin layout. Another way, of course, is to get the Brown-Dog adapters.
Hi
My first post in these wonderful forums.
I'm very interested in this thread. I,ve also a dcd s-10, wich I bought second hand 5 years ago. After having to change the laser pickup, and its flat cable, I'm thinking about upgrading the analog part, and also the clock. This player has two cloks on the digital board: Does anybody know which is the one to susbstituted?
I'm also very interested in a copy of the service manual. It,s impossible to find it anywhere.
And my little contribution: I have my unit on the bench, and after unpluggin the Balanced output board, it seems that the highs become a little more detailed. I have only tested it using earphones ( and not very good ones ). Could anybody confirm it ?
Regards
My first post in these wonderful forums.
I'm very interested in this thread. I,ve also a dcd s-10, wich I bought second hand 5 years ago. After having to change the laser pickup, and its flat cable, I'm thinking about upgrading the analog part, and also the clock. This player has two cloks on the digital board: Does anybody know which is the one to susbstituted?
I'm also very interested in a copy of the service manual. It,s impossible to find it anywhere.
And my little contribution: I have my unit on the bench, and after unpluggin the Balanced output board, it seems that the highs become a little more detailed. I have only tested it using earphones ( and not very good ones ). Could anybody confirm it ?
Regards
Hi Noak,
Well, I've been looking for my Canadian DCD-S10 service manual. Can't find it yet.
Generally, if the P/U is gone, so is the motor. The motor may be bad and the P/U is okay. After that is sorted out, clean and lubricate the mechanism. The rail gets a touch of "diamond oil" (from Denon # 5290054007). It's a light, slightly clingy fluid. Nylon to nylon contact gets Denon #9900013402. It's a funny slippery white grease. If you can't get the oil, use a fine no additive type (not 3 in 1!), use white grease if you have nothing else for the white grease.
Now Denon is a cool company, like Pioneer they have a service program built in (also a heat run mode to catch intermittent faults). I can't remember the sequence off hand. Basically, push front panel buttons, or short a terminal and turn the power on.
Then you set offsets, and with a filter and signal generator, gains. I now use the Pierre Verany disc and watch the servo error test points with a 'scope to set them up. I can do it faster and more accurately that way now but it takes experience. There is an adjustment for E-F balance (critical), but it's very easy to cause havoc, just check it with the Verany disc (#2, tracks 40-43. Monitor RF and tracking error) It's a pain to set the 'scope up and takes practice. You want to look at the RF envelope and make the recovery clean.
This procedure is more or less true of every CD player made. You can't just stick the head in. Like a tape machine, you have to calibrate it. Otherwise, the BLER (BLock Error Rate) rate goes up and sound quality suffers. You'd be surprised how far out of adjustment many new CD players are. Think of that next time you read a review.
-Chris
Well, I've been looking for my Canadian DCD-S10 service manual. Can't find it yet.
Generally, if the P/U is gone, so is the motor. The motor may be bad and the P/U is okay. After that is sorted out, clean and lubricate the mechanism. The rail gets a touch of "diamond oil" (from Denon # 5290054007). It's a light, slightly clingy fluid. Nylon to nylon contact gets Denon #9900013402. It's a funny slippery white grease. If you can't get the oil, use a fine no additive type (not 3 in 1!), use white grease if you have nothing else for the white grease.
Now Denon is a cool company, like Pioneer they have a service program built in (also a heat run mode to catch intermittent faults). I can't remember the sequence off hand. Basically, push front panel buttons, or short a terminal and turn the power on.
Then you set offsets, and with a filter and signal generator, gains. I now use the Pierre Verany disc and watch the servo error test points with a 'scope to set them up. I can do it faster and more accurately that way now but it takes experience. There is an adjustment for E-F balance (critical), but it's very easy to cause havoc, just check it with the Verany disc (#2, tracks 40-43. Monitor RF and tracking error) It's a pain to set the 'scope up and takes practice. You want to look at the RF envelope and make the recovery clean.
This procedure is more or less true of every CD player made. You can't just stick the head in. Like a tape machine, you have to calibrate it. Otherwise, the BLER (BLock Error Rate) rate goes up and sound quality suffers. You'd be surprised how far out of adjustment many new CD players are. Think of that next time you read a review.
-Chris
Hi.
After replacing the pickup, the player sounds much better, than with the older one. Also the flat cable wich connects the pickup to the Digital PCB was defective, and it gave a lot of trouble ( I suspect ) of skipping, and not reading TOC. As I readed in some other threads in this forum as in other web sites the flat cable gives a lot of trouble with KSS240 Pickup. I didn't adjust anything as I also heard that it was unnecesary. Maybe a little adjustment would get things better, but I don't have any Idea of how to do it. The pickup has 3 pots, which I suspect must be for adjusting focus, tracking and maybe laser power. But I could't find any information about them. :bawling
About changing the disc motor, well; after probably ten years of work, shuldn't be a bad idea replacing it. I'll try to find a new one. Thanks for the advice. It's a good Idea.
Anyway the player sounds fine to me. It sounds more detailed than before, but for now I can only test it using the headphones connected directly to the player. I'll have to take it home to test with the rest of the equipment, wich should reveal much more.
Regards.
After replacing the pickup, the player sounds much better, than with the older one. Also the flat cable wich connects the pickup to the Digital PCB was defective, and it gave a lot of trouble ( I suspect ) of skipping, and not reading TOC. As I readed in some other threads in this forum as in other web sites the flat cable gives a lot of trouble with KSS240 Pickup. I didn't adjust anything as I also heard that it was unnecesary. Maybe a little adjustment would get things better, but I don't have any Idea of how to do it. The pickup has 3 pots, which I suspect must be for adjusting focus, tracking and maybe laser power. But I could't find any information about them. :bawling
About changing the disc motor, well; after probably ten years of work, shuldn't be a bad idea replacing it. I'll try to find a new one. Thanks for the advice. It's a good Idea.
Anyway the player sounds fine to me. It sounds more detailed than before, but for now I can only test it using the headphones connected directly to the player. I'll have to take it home to test with the rest of the equipment, wich should reveal much more.
Regards.
Hi Cucalambe,
Without knowing what you are doing, you are better off not touching anything.
My main point was to show you there were other things involved. If you know of a really good technician who works on these, a bit of his time may outweigh many mods. Not all technicians are evil.
Correct the problems at the source. Your head replacement reduced the bulk of the errors. The disc motor will be responsible for a ton of jitter and buffer under/ over runs.
If you feed a DSP and DACs with garbage, guess what you get out?
-Chris
Without knowing what you are doing, you are better off not touching anything.
My main point was to show you there were other things involved. If you know of a really good technician who works on these, a bit of his time may outweigh many mods. Not all technicians are evil.
Correct the problems at the source. Your head replacement reduced the bulk of the errors. The disc motor will be responsible for a ton of jitter and buffer under/ over runs.
If you feed a DSP and DACs with garbage, guess what you get out?
-Chris
Hi Anatech.
Sure I'm not the most experienced in repairing Cd players, But at least I've got my player back to life. Better a little than nothing.
And the result is good enough so far. It souds good. Reads TOC very quikly, And some discs that where unreadable are now playing OK.
Anyway I'd like to try a little more.
And I like to learn.
Sure I'm not the most experienced in repairing Cd players, But at least I've got my player back to life. Better a little than nothing.
And the result is good enough so far. It souds good. Reads TOC very quikly, And some discs that where unreadable are now playing OK.
Anyway I'd like to try a little more.
And I like to learn.
Hi Cucalambe,
Agreed, you got it running again. That's good.
Understand that we have come away from optimized circuits and adjustments. We are now force fed middle of the road performance. Many newer players and amps don't even allow adjustments any more. Many poor techs made them a liability for the manufacturer.
The very best way to learn is to be taught one on one by a technician. You need the service manual, and a "victim" matching the manual. If you get an older Sony that works properly, they are good to learn on. Not the real old 2nd generation with lots of flaky adjustments, something using a KSS-150A or 210A. You will need an oscilloscope that has a 0.5uS / div horizontal range. Many new 20MHz 'scopes will work fine for this. Adjust each pot slowly while watching the signal at the test point. Mark the starting point.
There is no way you can be taught over the internet with nothing in front of you. You need someone there with you.
-Chris
Agreed, you got it running again. That's good.
Understand that we have come away from optimized circuits and adjustments. We are now force fed middle of the road performance. Many newer players and amps don't even allow adjustments any more. Many poor techs made them a liability for the manufacturer.
The very best way to learn is to be taught one on one by a technician. You need the service manual, and a "victim" matching the manual. If you get an older Sony that works properly, they are good to learn on. Not the real old 2nd generation with lots of flaky adjustments, something using a KSS-150A or 210A. You will need an oscilloscope that has a 0.5uS / div horizontal range. Many new 20MHz 'scopes will work fine for this. Adjust each pot slowly while watching the signal at the test point. Mark the starting point.
There is no way you can be taught over the internet with nothing in front of you. You need someone there with you.
-Chris
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.