re message
Lee,
did u pm or email cos i diddnt get either. ordered 10 nichicons of rs be here in the am @ birmingham rs.
thanks tho lee
Lee,
did u pm or email cos i diddnt get either. ordered 10 nichicons of rs be here in the am @ birmingham rs.
thanks tho lee
Thought I'd post an update as to how my mods were getting on... me being a rank amateur and all that. This might be a confidence-booster for others whose knowledge might be limited. Fortunately a poster on here, who lives not too far away from me, kindly agreed to help me through this.
My plan is to work through Ray's list. I have a KIs.
My guru emailed me a list of parts (he said to start with the power supply) and I bought them from Farnell and RS. Pity you can't buy what you need – in some cases you need to buy a min. order of 5 when you only need 1!! (Maybe I'll mod a few more CDPs later on when I get the hang of it.)
I also bought a flea with parts and a DOS board from Ray's site. These will be parked temporarily for later on in the project.
So I bought all the stuff and went round to my guru's house one evening. He showed me how to remove the circuit board, how to use my new digi multimeter (yes, I'm that thick!), explained where the parts went – but I'd located most of 'em beforehand on the circuit diagram, and pointed out that caps have + and - and to get them the right way round. He then de-soldered 1 cap for me, removed it and soldered 1 in place (with a capacitor connected to both legs on the solder side of the board – I hadn't expected this). We put it back together; it worked and he left me to it and then he buggered off on holiday.
I had been practising my de-soldering and soldering skills on an old tuner circuit board for a few weeks beforehand and this bit didn't frighten me.
So, the next Friday evening I approached the task with some trepidation. I planned to replace:
C803/804
C805/806
C811/812
C813
C814
C815
D801...804
D811...814
D851/854
DN01/02
So, 21 parts in total (some also with the additional caps between legs underneath). I made a start by removing the circuit board – bloody difficult to unhook the cd drawer assembly from the switch at the back. I worked through Fri evening and again on Sat evening 'til late and completed the job. After each part that I fitted I tested it with the multimeter – bloody useful tool!
One problem I had was when I applied too much heat when de-soldering and I burnt 1 of the metal rings and the ring came off. I tried soldering the new cap but couldn't get a good connection. I thought I had, but the multimeter said otherwise. So I hard-wired a piece of wire taken from my 'practice' tuner pcb and this worked. Somewhat agricultural?
I also accidentally scraped 1 of the solder tracks when clipping a capacitor's legs down to size after soldering. Drat! Again there was no continuity so I phoned a friend who told me to place 2 small pieces of wire (leftovers from the cap legs) to bridge the gap along the track. After a bit of fiddling this worked.
I checked everything before re-assembling (that bloody cd tray again!) and with heart in mouth switched on...
Yes! The light came on! And it worked. I listened and was not too impressed, although this did not surprise me since stuff needs time to settle in. So I put it on repeat play and left it for a few hours.
So the verdict...
the upper bass bloom has gone (which I quite liked) so in some way it has lost this pleasant characteristic which also seemed to make the sound stage bigger. The mid is a smidgeon clearer and the bass is less 'boomy' and there seems to be a touch more space between instruments. So, not jaw-droppingly better, but logic and a knowledgeable friend tell me that I am doing the most important stuff first which means that what I do later will have an even bigger impact.
Onward and upwards. Oh, and a massive thanks to my guru who is helping me and of course not forgetting the inspiration provided by the many contributors to this thread!
My plan is to work through Ray's list. I have a KIs.
My guru emailed me a list of parts (he said to start with the power supply) and I bought them from Farnell and RS. Pity you can't buy what you need – in some cases you need to buy a min. order of 5 when you only need 1!! (Maybe I'll mod a few more CDPs later on when I get the hang of it.
)I also bought a flea with parts and a DOS board from Ray's site. These will be parked temporarily for later on in the project.
So I bought all the stuff and went round to my guru's house one evening. He showed me how to remove the circuit board, how to use my new digi multimeter (yes, I'm that thick!), explained where the parts went – but I'd located most of 'em beforehand on the circuit diagram, and pointed out that caps have + and - and to get them the right way round. He then de-soldered 1 cap for me, removed it and soldered 1 in place (with a capacitor connected to both legs on the solder side of the board – I hadn't expected this). We put it back together; it worked and he left me to it and then he buggered off on holiday.
I had been practising my de-soldering and soldering skills on an old tuner circuit board for a few weeks beforehand and this bit didn't frighten me.
So, the next Friday evening I approached the task with some trepidation. I planned to replace:
C803/804
C805/806
C811/812
C813
C814
C815
D801...804
D811...814
D851/854
DN01/02
So, 21 parts in total (some also with the additional caps between legs underneath). I made a start by removing the circuit board – bloody difficult to unhook the cd drawer assembly from the switch at the back. I worked through Fri evening and again on Sat evening 'til late and completed the job. After each part that I fitted I tested it with the multimeter – bloody useful tool!
One problem I had was when I applied too much heat when de-soldering and I burnt 1 of the metal rings and the ring came off. I tried soldering the new cap but couldn't get a good connection. I thought I had, but the multimeter said otherwise. So I hard-wired a piece of wire taken from my 'practice' tuner pcb and this worked. Somewhat agricultural?
I also accidentally scraped 1 of the solder tracks when clipping a capacitor's legs down to size after soldering. Drat! Again there was no continuity so I phoned a friend who told me to place 2 small pieces of wire (leftovers from the cap legs) to bridge the gap along the track. After a bit of fiddling this worked.
I checked everything before re-assembling (that bloody cd tray again!) and with heart in mouth switched on...
Yes! The light came on! And it worked. I listened and was not too impressed, although this did not surprise me since stuff needs time to settle in. So I put it on repeat play and left it for a few hours.
So the verdict...
the upper bass bloom has gone (which I quite liked) so in some way it has lost this pleasant characteristic which also seemed to make the sound stage bigger. The mid is a smidgeon clearer and the bass is less 'boomy' and there seems to be a touch more space between instruments. So, not jaw-droppingly better, but logic and a knowledgeable friend tell me that I am doing the most important stuff first which means that what I do later will have an even bigger impact.
Onward and upwards. Oh, and a massive thanks to my guru who is helping me and of course not forgetting the inspiration provided by the many contributors to this thread!
Not fried I doubt, will be something silly like incorrect pin connection on the neg regs you've put in for the driver IC's or a rail missing. Post a couple of pics so we can see what you've done
Hey Alan, I was exactly where you were about a week ago. That wasn't the first time, either. I played whack-a-mole with broken traces for ages before finally it came back to life sounding better than ever. (Amazingly, the pre-reg smoothing cap on the negative output rail had snapped free causing that hum I was on about.)
Get the board out again and check for broken pads around the decoder, DAC clock, etc. Check the voltages to the driver ICs and check the driver reg ground pins aren't floating. You'll fix it and it'll sound better than before, I'll bet.
Good luck,
Ben
Get the board out again and check for broken pads around the decoder, DAC clock, etc. Check the voltages to the driver ICs and check the driver reg ground pins aren't floating. You'll fix it and it'll sound better than before, I'll bet.
Good luck,
Ben
fried player
Checked for faults found cracked track on c803 a toasted cap on c805 to many repairs done on board, RIP mk1 atempt. Salvaged clock and all i could start again.
Need to plan better i started as a noob had fun loved the sound i got can do better no will do better.
alan
Checked for faults found cracked track on c803 a toasted cap on c805 to many repairs done on board, RIP mk1 atempt. Salvaged clock and all i could start again.
Need to plan better i started as a noob had fun loved the sound i got can do better
no will do better.alan
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Salvage what you can, buy a faulty one on eBay and know that you've learned loads on the way. I killed a couple with relentless soldering and re-soldering. You'll get an SE for sub £50 if you are patient. I paid £35 for my last SE and it was working! You dont need to pay the high prices for a KI, you'll remove all he did anyway! lol
cd6se3
beers takin over alan
Ive got a few players here ian ki as the standard a lightly modded 63 and a boxed 63se my next victim lol, ive had fun and met nice ppl on the way.
beers takin over alan
Sorry to hear about your problem Alan. As others have said, look at this positively. You have learned a lot and no doubt will do better next time. I see no reason why you can't re-use the stuff you gained. It will be nearly new... as long as it works.
DOS progress update: Shown here with parts (mostly) as per Brent's list but with cheapo regs and 1% metal film resistors in the filter for testing. I'm hoping to hook it up soon.
Ben, nice! That's on my list for later on.
Lymmlad, just read your post. What caps and values did you use. Ray's list has been somewhat updated in the past few years. Also, you'd be better off practising in something other than a KI! As I keep saying once you mod, the only benefit of the KI is the badge. It's the same circuit with some components changed!
I think you make a good point re the KI. I suppose I was impatient to get started and couldn't be bothered with going to the trouble of buying another 63. I also understand that (may have read it on here) there was a benefit in the KI's copper chassis. My list:
Part: Org. value: Replace by: Brand: Farnell/RS Remark:
C803/804 470u/35V sm. 3300u/25V Panasonic FR RS/708-3796 + 1u MKT
C805/806 470u/16V 1000u/16V Panasonic FR 180-0637 + 100n PPS 1913
C811/812 47n cer. 47n MKS Wima 100-6025
C813 4700u/16V 4700u/16V Panasonic FR 180-0647 + 1u MKT
C814 1000u/16V 3300u/16V Panasonic FR 180-0643 + 1u MKT
C815 3300u/6,3V 4700u/10V Panasonic FR RS/708-3594 + 100n PPS 1913
D801...804 S5688G MBR1100 IR 489-7432
D811...814 S5688G MBR1100 IR 489-7432
D851/854 S5688G MBR1100 IR 489-7432
DN01/02 S5688G MBR1100 IR 489-7432
Sorry, the above has lost its formatting, but I think it is understandable.
Not tried those fr's so I've not idea how they sound. Specs look interesting. I'd be using tsup 6800uF smoothers on the audio rails and 22,000uF on the +/-10v rails (v important) also no panasonics after the regs. You've taken warm sounding audio focussed silmics out of the post reg position and replaced with these fr's which are an unknown. The whole thing about the KI is its toroid transformer and then cap choice over the std model.
Rule of thumb, in the absence of Mundorf and black gate, use large Panasonic tsup smoothers that you need to mount on short leads to fit before the regs (and on the -10v). Use rubycon 470uf post reg +/-12v and a zl after the 5v reg. use 470uF zlg for all analogue local decoupling and use solid polymer for digital decoupling.
Caps influence the psu rails and the psu rails are what you hear!!! Crap rails, crap sound!!
On a different subject, I noticed Brent has changed the order on his mod packages and replaces the transformer in the level 1 now. I've got a couple of 63se's std. I'm going to change just the transformers in 1 and compare
Rule of thumb, in the absence of Mundorf and black gate, use large Panasonic tsup smoothers that you need to mount on short leads to fit before the regs (and on the -10v). Use rubycon 470uf post reg +/-12v and a zl after the 5v reg. use 470uF zlg for all analogue local decoupling and use solid polymer for digital decoupling.
Caps influence the psu rails and the psu rails are what you hear!!! Crap rails, crap sound!!
On a different subject, I noticed Brent has changed the order on his mod packages and replaces the transformer in the level 1 now. I've got a couple of 63se's std. I'm going to change just the transformers in 1 and compare
Not tried those fr's so I've not idea how they sound. Specs look interesting. I'd be using tsup 6800uF smoothers on the audio rails and 22,000uF on the +/-10v rails (v important) also no panasonics after the regs. You've taken warm sounding audio focussed silmics out of the post reg position and replaced with these fr's which are an unknown. The whole thing about the KI is its toroid transformer and then cap choice over the std model.
Rule of thumb, in the absence of Mundorf and black gate, use large Panasonic tsup smoothers that you need to mount on short leads to fit before the regs (and on the -10v). Use rubycon 470uf post reg +/-12v and a zl after the 5v reg. use 470uF zlg for all analogue local decoupling and use solid polymer for digital decoupling.
Caps influence the psu rails and the psu rails are what you hear!!! Crap rails, crap sound!!
On a different subject, I noticed Brent has changed the order on his mod packages and replaces the transformer in the level 1 now. I've got a couple of 63se's std. I'm going to change just the transformers in 1 and compare
Thanks for your comments... some of which are beyond my understanding (for now) but you make an interesting observation re the warm sounding silmics. There is so much for me to learn, such as 'where are the psu rails?'.
My list was given to me by my guru who is currently on hols. I will discuss your views with him on his return.
Interesting point you make about the transformer and this mod being done at an early stage. I would welcome your views on the comparison with standard.
Nice work Ben, you really need to save for decent regs now or you're loosing about 90% of what the DOS is capable of!
Lymmlad,
Some basic PSU theory
From the output windings of the transformer you have low voltage AC. The bridge rectifier (4 diodes) rectify this to DC (almost!!!). The DC is of poor quality at this point, varying in voltage. The job of the "Smoothing" cap is to charge when the voltage is high and discharge as the voltage lowers.This smooths the DC and reduces the ripple. The smoother also acts as a supply on demand store for extra power when demand is high.
After the smoother comes the voltage regulator. The job of the regulator is to stabilise the voltage supply and stop is rising and falling in line with the load.
After the regulator you will have another usually lower value cap and more acting as local decoupling close to anything the voltage rail supplies.
In the 63 there are 2x 17.6vac which are rectified through D801-804. The configuration of the rectifier in relation to the gnd give you 2 rails of +&- 20.8v. The smoothing caps before the regs are C803 on the + rail and C804 on the - rail. Next you have the regs Q801 and Q802 then the post reg caps C805 & C806.
Audio supply rail
In the KI, C803&4 are 470uF Elna Silmic which are special audio caps. The player will benefit from a significant increase in stamina here. I use Fidelity Audio SI or Mundorf SI caps here of 22,000uF. These are abut £12 per cap. A much cheaper alternative is Panasonic TSUP 6800uF/35v which are about £3 per cap. Post reg, I would use rubycon ZLG 470uF which are less than £1.
Servo, Analogue and Digital rails
2 x 9.6vac go via the 2 fuses FH11 & FH12 to the rectifiers D811-814 the onto the smoothers C813 and C814. These are an issue in this player and this rail is woefully inadequate! I'd again use Fidelity Audio SI or Mundorf SI 22,000uF here or again the cheaper alternative would be Panasonic TSUP 22,000uF/16v which are about £4. These unregulated rails drive the servo section. In addition, the + rail is then regulated to 5v for the analogue and digital 5v rail that supply the whole player by Q811. The cap post reg here is C815. This is quite large for a post reg cap (3300uF). I use a Rubycon ZLH here either 4700uF or 6800uF 6.3v.
When you have tested it all, you can also bypass the 2 fuses which really dont do anything other than protect a short on the rail. With an analogue voltmeter in a standard player, you can see the voltage on the rails dip as the servo spins up the motor. With these mods and the fuses shorted out, its much less noticable.
All these mods are tried and tested by many on the forum and really are an evolution of the original list that Ray posted all that time ago!
Grab yourself a copy of the service manual and have a read!!! I've stripped out the section that shows the components I'm talking about above, hopefully this will help you to understand
BTW, all the upgrades I have suggested to the smoothers C803,4,13 & 14 will required mounting on short leads as their physical size is too big for the space of the original cap.
P.S. Yes I am watching the football which is why its taken over an hour to type that lot out!!! lol!!!
Here's one I made earlier, its using larger caps in 3 of the mentioned locations
Lymmlad,
Some basic PSU theory
From the output windings of the transformer you have low voltage AC. The bridge rectifier (4 diodes) rectify this to DC (almost!!!). The DC is of poor quality at this point, varying in voltage. The job of the "Smoothing" cap is to charge when the voltage is high and discharge as the voltage lowers.This smooths the DC and reduces the ripple. The smoother also acts as a supply on demand store for extra power when demand is high.
After the smoother comes the voltage regulator. The job of the regulator is to stabilise the voltage supply and stop is rising and falling in line with the load.
After the regulator you will have another usually lower value cap and more acting as local decoupling close to anything the voltage rail supplies.
In the 63 there are 2x 17.6vac which are rectified through D801-804. The configuration of the rectifier in relation to the gnd give you 2 rails of +&- 20.8v. The smoothing caps before the regs are C803 on the + rail and C804 on the - rail. Next you have the regs Q801 and Q802 then the post reg caps C805 & C806.
Audio supply rail
In the KI, C803&4 are 470uF Elna Silmic which are special audio caps. The player will benefit from a significant increase in stamina here. I use Fidelity Audio SI or Mundorf SI caps here of 22,000uF. These are abut £12 per cap. A much cheaper alternative is Panasonic TSUP 6800uF/35v which are about £3 per cap. Post reg, I would use rubycon ZLG 470uF which are less than £1.
Servo, Analogue and Digital rails
2 x 9.6vac go via the 2 fuses FH11 & FH12 to the rectifiers D811-814 the onto the smoothers C813 and C814. These are an issue in this player and this rail is woefully inadequate! I'd again use Fidelity Audio SI or Mundorf SI 22,000uF here or again the cheaper alternative would be Panasonic TSUP 22,000uF/16v which are about £4. These unregulated rails drive the servo section. In addition, the + rail is then regulated to 5v for the analogue and digital 5v rail that supply the whole player by Q811. The cap post reg here is C815. This is quite large for a post reg cap (3300uF). I use a Rubycon ZLH here either 4700uF or 6800uF 6.3v.
When you have tested it all, you can also bypass the 2 fuses which really dont do anything other than protect a short on the rail. With an analogue voltmeter in a standard player, you can see the voltage on the rails dip as the servo spins up the motor. With these mods and the fuses shorted out, its much less noticable.
All these mods are tried and tested by many on the forum and really are an evolution of the original list that Ray posted all that time ago!
Grab yourself a copy of the service manual and have a read!!! I've stripped out the section that shows the components I'm talking about above, hopefully this will help you to understand
BTW, all the upgrades I have suggested to the smoothers C803,4,13 & 14 will required mounting on short leads as their physical size is too big for the space of the original cap.
P.S. Yes I am watching the football which is why its taken over an hour to type that lot out!!! lol!!!
Here's one I made earlier, its using larger caps in 3 of the mentioned locations
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