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Old 24th June 2012, 12:07 AM   #18231
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Im just a bit worried do i re use the stuff i gained , Hope its ok .
alan
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Old 24th June 2012, 06:06 AM   #18232
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Sorry to hear that, Alan. I hope you salvage what you need and nail the next one.

DOS progress update: Shown here with parts (mostly) as per Brent's list but with cheapo regs and 1% metal film resistors in the filter for testing. I'm hoping to hook it up soon.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 24th June 2012, 09:16 AM   #18233
lymmlad is offline lymmlad  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikeral10 View Post
Im just a bit worried do i re use the stuff i gained , Hope its ok .
alan
Sorry to hear about your problem Alan. As others have said, look at this positively. You have learned a lot and no doubt will do better next time. I see no reason why you can't re-use the stuff you gained. It will be nearly new... as long as it works.
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Old 24th June 2012, 09:18 AM   #18234
lymmlad is offline lymmlad  England
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Originally Posted by Ben Hanke View Post

DOS progress update: Shown here with parts (mostly) as per Brent's list but with cheapo regs and 1% metal film resistors in the filter for testing. I'm hoping to hook it up soon.

Click the image to open in full size.
Ben, nice! That's on my list for later on.
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Old 24th June 2012, 09:33 AM   #18235
UV101 is offline UV101  England
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Lymmlad, just read your post. What caps and values did you use. Ray's list has been somewhat updated in the past few years. Also, you'd be better off practising in something other than a KI! As I keep saying once you mod, the only benefit of the KI is the badge. It's the same circuit with some components changed!
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Old 24th June 2012, 09:44 AM   #18236
lymmlad is offline lymmlad  England
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Originally Posted by UV101 View Post
Lymmlad, just read your post. What caps and values did you use. Ray's list has been somewhat updated in the past few years. Also, you'd be better off practising in something other than a KI! As I keep saying once you mod, the only benefit of the KI is the badge. It's the same circuit with some components changed!
I think you make a good point re the KI. I suppose I was impatient to get started and couldn't be bothered with going to the trouble of buying another 63. I also understand that (may have read it on here) there was a benefit in the KI's copper chassis. My list:


Part: Org. value: Replace by: Brand: Farnell/RS Remark:

C803/804 470u/35V sm. 3300u/25V Panasonic FR RS/708-3796 + 1u MKT
C805/806 470u/16V 1000u/16V Panasonic FR 180-0637 + 100n PPS 1913
C811/812 47n cer. 47n MKS Wima 100-6025
C813 4700u/16V 4700u/16V Panasonic FR 180-0647 + 1u MKT
C814 1000u/16V 3300u/16V Panasonic FR 180-0643 + 1u MKT
C815 3300u/6,3V 4700u/10V Panasonic FR RS/708-3594 + 100n PPS 1913
D801...804 S5688G MBR1100 IR 489-7432
D811...814 S5688G MBR1100 IR 489-7432
D851/854 S5688G MBR1100 IR 489-7432
DN01/02 S5688G MBR1100 IR 489-7432

Sorry, the above has lost its formatting, but I think it is understandable.
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Old 24th June 2012, 10:19 AM   #18237
UV101 is offline UV101  England
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Not tried those fr's so I've not idea how they sound. Specs look interesting. I'd be using tsup 6800uF smoothers on the audio rails and 22,000uF on the +/-10v rails (v important) also no panasonics after the regs. You've taken warm sounding audio focussed silmics out of the post reg position and replaced with these fr's which are an unknown. The whole thing about the KI is its toroid transformer and then cap choice over the std model.

Rule of thumb, in the absence of Mundorf and black gate, use large Panasonic tsup smoothers that you need to mount on short leads to fit before the regs (and on the -10v). Use rubycon 470uf post reg +/-12v and a zl after the 5v reg. use 470uF zlg for all analogue local decoupling and use solid polymer for digital decoupling.

Caps influence the psu rails and the psu rails are what you hear!!! Crap rails, crap sound!!

On a different subject, I noticed Brent has changed the order on his mod packages and replaces the transformer in the level 1 now. I've got a couple of 63se's std. I'm going to change just the transformers in 1 and compare
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Old 24th June 2012, 10:43 AM   #18238
lymmlad is offline lymmlad  England
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Originally Posted by UV101 View Post
Not tried those fr's so I've not idea how they sound. Specs look interesting. I'd be using tsup 6800uF smoothers on the audio rails and 22,000uF on the +/-10v rails (v important) also no panasonics after the regs. You've taken warm sounding audio focussed silmics out of the post reg position and replaced with these fr's which are an unknown. The whole thing about the KI is its toroid transformer and then cap choice over the std model.

Rule of thumb, in the absence of Mundorf and black gate, use large Panasonic tsup smoothers that you need to mount on short leads to fit before the regs (and on the -10v). Use rubycon 470uf post reg +/-12v and a zl after the 5v reg. use 470uF zlg for all analogue local decoupling and use solid polymer for digital decoupling.

Caps influence the psu rails and the psu rails are what you hear!!! Crap rails, crap sound!!

On a different subject, I noticed Brent has changed the order on his mod packages and replaces the transformer in the level 1 now. I've got a couple of 63se's std. I'm going to change just the transformers in 1 and compare
Thanks for your comments... some of which are beyond my understanding (for now) but you make an interesting observation re the warm sounding silmics. There is so much for me to learn, such as 'where are the psu rails?'.

My list was given to me by my guru who is currently on hols. I will discuss your views with him on his return.

Interesting point you make about the transformer and this mod being done at an early stage. I would welcome your views on the comparison with standard.
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Old 24th June 2012, 08:06 PM   #18239
UV101 is offline UV101  England
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Nice work Ben, you really need to save for decent regs now or you're loosing about 90% of what the DOS is capable of!

Lymmlad,

Some basic PSU theory

From the output windings of the transformer you have low voltage AC. The bridge rectifier (4 diodes) rectify this to DC (almost!!!). The DC is of poor quality at this point, varying in voltage. The job of the "Smoothing" cap is to charge when the voltage is high and discharge as the voltage lowers.This smooths the DC and reduces the ripple. The smoother also acts as a supply on demand store for extra power when demand is high.

After the smoother comes the voltage regulator. The job of the regulator is to stabilise the voltage supply and stop is rising and falling in line with the load.

After the regulator you will have another usually lower value cap and more acting as local decoupling close to anything the voltage rail supplies.

In the 63 there are 2x 17.6vac which are rectified through D801-804. The configuration of the rectifier in relation to the gnd give you 2 rails of +&- 20.8v. The smoothing caps before the regs are C803 on the + rail and C804 on the - rail. Next you have the regs Q801 and Q802 then the post reg caps C805 & C806.

Audio supply rail
In the KI, C803&4 are 470uF Elna Silmic which are special audio caps. The player will benefit from a significant increase in stamina here. I use Fidelity Audio SI or Mundorf SI caps here of 22,000uF. These are abut £12 per cap. A much cheaper alternative is Panasonic TSUP 6800uF/35v which are about £3 per cap. Post reg, I would use rubycon ZLG 470uF which are less than £1.

Servo, Analogue and Digital rails
2 x 9.6vac go via the 2 fuses FH11 & FH12 to the rectifiers D811-814 the onto the smoothers C813 and C814. These are an issue in this player and this rail is woefully inadequate! I'd again use Fidelity Audio SI or Mundorf SI 22,000uF here or again the cheaper alternative would be Panasonic TSUP 22,000uF/16v which are about £4. These unregulated rails drive the servo section. In addition, the + rail is then regulated to 5v for the analogue and digital 5v rail that supply the whole player by Q811. The cap post reg here is C815. This is quite large for a post reg cap (3300uF). I use a Rubycon ZLH here either 4700uF or 6800uF 6.3v.

When you have tested it all, you can also bypass the 2 fuses which really dont do anything other than protect a short on the rail. With an analogue voltmeter in a standard player, you can see the voltage on the rails dip as the servo spins up the motor. With these mods and the fuses shorted out, its much less noticable.

All these mods are tried and tested by many on the forum and really are an evolution of the original list that Ray posted all that time ago!

Grab yourself a copy of the service manual and have a read!!! I've stripped out the section that shows the components I'm talking about above, hopefully this will help you to understand

BTW, all the upgrades I have suggested to the smoothers C803,4,13 & 14 will required mounting on short leads as their physical size is too big for the space of the original cap.

Click the image to open in full size.

P.S. Yes I am watching the football which is why its taken over an hour to type that lot out!!! lol!!!

Here's one I made earlier, its using larger caps in 3 of the mentioned locations

Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by UV101; 24th June 2012 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 24th June 2012, 09:45 PM   #18240
lymmlad is offline lymmlad  England
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UV,
Wow! Thanks v much for your full explanation. I have had a quick read but will need to get my head around it properly when I have more time. I really appreciate your help in this respect. I'll get back to this hopefully tomorrow evening.
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