Digital output format of Sony SACD Engine with CD? - diyAudio
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Old 5th November 2004, 12:33 PM   #1
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Default Digital output format of Sony SACD Engine with CD?

Konnichiwa,

This is a long shot, I know. But does anyone know which format (bit depth, alignment, LSB or MSB first etc...) the Sony SACD engine used in the Shanling SCD T-200 uses? I have a REALLY CRAZY idea for that player, but I want to avoid having to borrow a fast logic analyser and to reverse engineer. Maybe someone knows?

Sayonara
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Old 5th November 2004, 02:31 PM   #2
macboy is offline macboy  Canada
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ottawa, Canada
My Sony SCD-CE775 SACD player uses Burr-Brown DSD1702 DACs. Grab the datasheets to see what format(s) it expects, and work from there. Honestly, there is only one data format for DSD... a stream of bits with a clock. That's it. There is no concept of justification, word length, LSB/MSB-first, or any of the other stuff from the PCM world. The bitstream directly represents changes in the signal; put simply, 1 means increasing and 0 means decreasing. That's why it's called Direct Stream Digital.
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Old 5th November 2004, 04:08 PM   #3
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Konnichiwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by macboy
My Sony SCD-CE775 SACD player uses Burr-Brown DSD1702 DACs. Grab the datasheets to see what format(s) it expects, and work from there.
The DAC's are usually able to accept a number of different formats.... You select them in software.

Quote:
Originally posted by macboy
Honestly, there is only one data format for DSD... a stream of bits with a clock. That's it.
I know, but I was NOT asking for the SACD signal (DSD), but for the digital (PCM) signal that is send to the PCM DAC (which happens to be actually the same, but that is another story entierly) when playing CD and NOT SACD.

Sayonara
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Old 5th November 2004, 06:26 PM   #4
macboy is offline macboy  Canada
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Quote:
I know, but I was NOT asking for the SACD signal (DSD), but for the digital (PCM) signal that is send to the PCM DAC (which happens to be actually the same, but that is another story entierly) when playing CD and NOT SACD
You were not very clear on that at all. You can't expect to get a useful answer if your question isn't specific and direct.

Anyhoo, in my Sony SACD player, the PCM from a CD takes a completely different path to the DACs and even enters the DACs through a different set of input pins. None of the DSD-specific circuitry like the DSD-DSP is in that datapath. Sony usually uses the "Sony" protocol for I2S, not vanilla I2S. Here's a description I found of Sony format:
Quote:
This data format is essentially the same as the I2S right-justified format. Normally there are only 32 SCLKs in a LRCLK period. The LRCLK is high for the left channel, and low for the right channel. The MSB comes in first.
and
Quote:
...Sony/Burr-Brown clocks left channel data on the falling word clock whereas Philips clocks left on the rising word clock... Much more difficult to fix, however, audio data for Sony/Burr-Brown is right justified whereas Philips is left justified, with a 1 bit delay from the word clock edge
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Old 5th November 2004, 09:02 PM   #5
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Konnichiwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by macboy
You were not very clear on that at all.
I wrote:

"Digital output format of Sony SACD Engine with CD?"

How was that not clear? Please allow me to understand how when I am trying to be very precise in my third language yet I failed to be clear?

Quote:
Originally posted by macboy
Anyhoo, in my Sony SACD player, the PCM from a CD takes a completely different path to the DACs and even enters the DACs through a different set of input pins. None of the DSD-specific circuitry like the DSD-DSP is in that datapath.
Same here.

Quote:
Originally posted by macboy
Sony usually uses the "Sony" protocol for I2S, not vanilla I2S. Here's a description I found of Sony format:and
Yes, I suspect the same, right justified....

Well, looks like no-one knows for sure....

I'll have to find out the hard way.

Sayonara
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Old 7th November 2004, 01:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: Digital output format of Sony SACD Engine with CD?

Kuey, what Dac does the Shanling use?
I have some service manuals from Sony SACD players, maby we can find a clue or a common point?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
I have a REALLY CRAZY idea for that player...
Naughty naughty... what are you up to now?
Connecting a TDA1541A there?
Nothing I haven't think about.
I'm waiting for a Pioneer DV-575 universal player for 3 months...
I don't know what happened to Pioneer, at least around here, many they don't produce enough quantity for the huge demanding they are getting now.
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Old 7th November 2004, 01:41 AM   #7
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Default Re: Re: Digital output format of Sony SACD Engine with CD?

Konnichiwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
Kuey, what Dac does the Shanling use?
PCM1738, software controlled, could be anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
I have some service manuals from Sony SACD players, maby we can find a clue or a common point?
AFAIK the drive unit is the same as the Sony SCD-1.

I suspect macboy is right, it's Sony Format. Not really difficult to handle, simply delay the clock, my main point is to know upfront how many cycles....

Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
Naughty naughty... what are you up to now?
Connecting a TDA1541A there?
Something like that. We have two distinctly seperate datastreams from the Drive, DSD using clock and L/R DSD Data, which can be easily integrated without any FIR filtering etc. (VSE do something like that) and one that is PCM.

So, stick a good DAC onto non-oversampled PCM to get the best from CD and directly convert DSD for the best in SACD. Valve output stage common to both. Simple, small new PCB holding DAC and supplies, plus the DSD to 0...-4mA converter..... I suspect whichever interface is unused is muted, so we can sum both into the I/V resistor of the analog stage....

Sayonara
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Old 7th November 2004, 01:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: Re: Re: Digital output format of Sony SACD Engine with CD?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
PCM1738, software controlled, could be anything.
AFAIK the drive unit is the same as the Sony SCD-1.
The transport may be from the same as the SCD-1 but that dac is used on the SCD-333ES.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
I suspect whichever interface is unused is muted, so we can sum both into the I/V resistor of the analog stage....
That's right, it is muted if not used.
That was more or less my plan too.
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Old 7th November 2004, 06:58 AM   #9
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Exclamation Re: Re: Re: Digital output format of Sony SACD Engine with CD?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
Konnichiwa,
Something like that. We have two distinctly seperate datastreams from the Drive, DSD using clock and L/R DSD Data, which can be easily integrated without any FIR filtering etc. (VSE do something like that) and one that is PCM.
Sayonara
This is not right, only the "current pulse converters" are bypassed NOT the DAC and the digital filter in the VSE mod.

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Old 7th November 2004, 07:05 AM   #10
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Digital output format of Sony SACD Engine with CD?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by carlosfm
[B]

The transport may be from the same as the SCD-1 but that dac is used on the SCD-333ES.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you ever looked at the SCD1 transport??


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