I have procured a 170 transport and black box dac. It works fine mechanically and sounds ok.
From what I have found on this forum and others is that the dac employs a custom clock recovery circuit.
Can any body tell me how effective this is ?
Is it worth perservering with or is it better to get hold of an Arcam Delta 70.2 instead ? Which I guess will mean it shouldn't have to go through spdif ?
I plan to change the clock and improve the psu. There are 7805 and 7815 regs on board, which I'll replace by two stage LM317 regs. I can't justify putting in superregs in there just yet. There are also 16 year old lytics made by rubycon which can be easily replaced by sanyo oscons, panasonic fc, stargets etc. Then I'll be looking at the clock with independent psu.
I have already changed the clock on my Arcam Alpha and have had very pleasing results from that. I'm hoping that the Delta will be a step or two better once fettled.
Thanks
From what I have found on this forum and others is that the dac employs a custom clock recovery circuit.
Can any body tell me how effective this is ?
Is it worth perservering with or is it better to get hold of an Arcam Delta 70.2 instead ? Which I guess will mean it shouldn't have to go through spdif ?
I plan to change the clock and improve the psu. There are 7805 and 7815 regs on board, which I'll replace by two stage LM317 regs. I can't justify putting in superregs in there just yet. There are also 16 year old lytics made by rubycon which can be easily replaced by sanyo oscons, panasonic fc, stargets etc. Then I'll be looking at the clock with independent psu.
I have already changed the clock on my Arcam Alpha and have had very pleasing results from that. I'm hoping that the Delta will be a step or two better once fettled.
Thanks
clock link
The fancy clock recovery with the additional toslink cable is only done on later models I think. Black box 50 and 500.
If you have Mk 1 versions of both units the mods mentioned will make a large difference. Do not forget some soft recovery diodes.
Be careful, I think the 70.2 could be bitstream although I may be confusing it with the 270, bitstream units will give a very different sound to the black box. In fact I preferrd BB2 over BB3 by far for this reason...
Guillaume
The fancy clock recovery with the additional toslink cable is only done on later models I think. Black box 50 and 500.
If you have Mk 1 versions of both units the mods mentioned will make a large difference. Do not forget some soft recovery diodes.
Be careful, I think the 70.2 could be bitstream although I may be confusing it with the 270, bitstream units will give a very different sound to the black box. In fact I preferrd BB2 over BB3 by far for this reason...
Guillaume
Tubenut, thanks for that. Arcam emailed me their workshop manuals, I'l summarise the info I have on the DAC used :
Alpha TDA1541A
Alpha+ TDA1541A
Alpha 5 TDA1541A
Alpha 6,7 hybrid / bitstream
Alpha 8,9 dCS
FMJ23, 23T dCS
Delta 70 TDA1541A
Delta 70.2 TDA1541A
Delta 70.3 hybrid / bitstream
Delta 170
Delta 170.2
Delta Blackbox TDA1541A
Delta Blackbox 2 TDA1541A
Delta Blackbox 3 hybrid / bitstream
Delta BB 50 hybrid / bitstream
Delta BB 500 hybrid / bitstream
My main consideration is whether the Delta 70.2 single box cdp would be a better foundation for clock and psu upgrades rather than the transport and DAC Delta 170 + Delta Blackbox (original) as the transport to DAC connection is much shorter, much more direct and doesn't use spdif, so should one less jitter component.
You're right about the BB 50 and 500 having separate clock sync line, I was sure the earlier BB had a non standard clock recovery scheme or non standard chip doing it.
Yep soft recovery diodes all round. There seems to be a lot of circuitry in the transport, otherwise I would have considered putting the contents from the DAC to the transport with the psu bits moved to the newly vacated DAC box.
Errors and omissions are all my own ;-)
Alpha TDA1541A
Alpha+ TDA1541A
Alpha 5 TDA1541A
Alpha 6,7 hybrid / bitstream
Alpha 8,9 dCS
FMJ23, 23T dCS
Delta 70 TDA1541A
Delta 70.2 TDA1541A
Delta 70.3 hybrid / bitstream
Delta 170
Delta 170.2
Delta Blackbox TDA1541A
Delta Blackbox 2 TDA1541A
Delta Blackbox 3 hybrid / bitstream
Delta BB 50 hybrid / bitstream
Delta BB 500 hybrid / bitstream
My main consideration is whether the Delta 70.2 single box cdp would be a better foundation for clock and psu upgrades rather than the transport and DAC Delta 170 + Delta Blackbox (original) as the transport to DAC connection is much shorter, much more direct and doesn't use spdif, so should one less jitter component.
You're right about the BB 50 and 500 having separate clock sync line, I was sure the earlier BB had a non standard clock recovery scheme or non standard chip doing it.
Yep soft recovery diodes all round. There seems to be a lot of circuitry in the transport, otherwise I would have considered putting the contents from the DAC to the transport with the psu bits moved to the newly vacated DAC box.
Errors and omissions are all my own ;-)
firestorm said:
Well thought, go for the 70.2. Or fit a DIY multibit DAC section in your 170, high DIY content !
BTW, did Arcam send you these manuals as well ? :
Delta Blackbox TDA1541A
Delta Blackbox 2 TDA1541A
Delta Blackbox 3 hybrid / bitstream
Delta BB 50 hybrid / bitstream
Delta BB 500 hybrid / bitstream
If possible I would like to have a copy of those.
It is all standard Philips fare, you could probably link it all via I2S quite easily anyway or go completely separate.
My main fear with your propsed project is longevity, those lasers are getting old and the DAC could be used with other drives in the future.....
I do probably agree with JP, getting SPDIF right is hard and many of the advantages of separate DAC and transport probably had more to do with PSU separation and more dedication to getting things right on the DAC side then anything else.
Guillaume
PS: JP off topic, do you have an easily mailed set up guide/manual for CDM4 laser based units like Philips 624/850 etc.
A friend of mine in Nigeria is fitting a new laser to his CD850 and would like a service manual.
Any help is welcome.
My main fear with your propsed project is longevity, those lasers are getting old and the DAC could be used with other drives in the future.....
I do probably agree with JP, getting SPDIF right is hard and many of the advantages of separate DAC and transport probably had more to do with PSU separation and more dedication to getting things right on the DAC side then anything else.
Guillaume
PS: JP off topic, do you have an easily mailed set up guide/manual for CDM4 laser based units like Philips 624/850 etc.
A friend of mine in Nigeria is fitting a new laser to his CD850 and would like a service manual.
Any help is welcome.
Guillaume
the transport is old but if its good I'll hang on to it till it falls apart, I can get a spare laser assembly in the UK without too much effort.
Is it a practical proposition to use I2S for the CD-DAC link ? I wonder if it'll work properly without a driver/buffer ? I remembered reading somewhere that the commercial implementations of I2S for DACs was fundamentally flawed, can't remember where or who said it though.
I would like to stick with my 170 + BB as it means I won't have to go through the hassle of selling it to allow me to buy another gadget .....
I had considered putting the contents from the DAC to the transport with the psu bits moved to the newly vacated DAC box, but there isn't much room. I'll post some photos later.
DIY DAC ? Too much complexity for me to get right, I've studied it for a little while, but getting the decoupling, groundplanes, earthing right is what differentiates a working implementation between a great sounding one. It is beyond my knowledge and budget. I have dabbled in RF and have experienced oscillators that didn't and amplifiers that did ! If I was to do it, I'll have to base it on something that has been proven to work, a well designed multilayer board perhaps with the option to screen certain sensitive components.
So in summary, the next step for me would be to investigate the praticalities for bypassing spdif and toslink by using I2S. I'll search the board before asking more questions on this.
JP ------------
PM me with your email address I'll send the BB pdf manuals to you.
Cheers
the transport is old but if its good I'll hang on to it till it falls apart, I can get a spare laser assembly in the UK without too much effort.
Is it a practical proposition to use I2S for the CD-DAC link ? I wonder if it'll work properly without a driver/buffer ? I remembered reading somewhere that the commercial implementations of I2S for DACs was fundamentally flawed, can't remember where or who said it though.
I would like to stick with my 170 + BB as it means I won't have to go through the hassle of selling it to allow me to buy another gadget .....
I had considered putting the contents from the DAC to the transport with the psu bits moved to the newly vacated DAC box, but there isn't much room. I'll post some photos later.
DIY DAC ? Too much complexity for me to get right, I've studied it for a little while, but getting the decoupling, groundplanes, earthing right is what differentiates a working implementation between a great sounding one. It is beyond my knowledge and budget. I have dabbled in RF and have experienced oscillators that didn't and amplifiers that did ! If I was to do it, I'll have to base it on something that has been proven to work, a well designed multilayer board perhaps with the option to screen certain sensitive components.
So in summary, the next step for me would be to investigate the praticalities for bypassing spdif and toslink by using I2S. I'll search the board before asking more questions on this.
JP ------------
PM me with your email address I'll send the BB pdf manuals to you.
Cheers
email not working....
Hi Tubenut
Since I sent the manual, I don't seem to be able to send you any more emails. I am receiving yours...but mine are being returned.
It's probably better to continue here anyway so that some others might join in.
So - If it's OK with you, I'll add the content of the emails to this conversation.........
Hi Tubenut
Since I sent the manual, I don't seem to be able to send you any more emails. I am receiving yours...but mine are being returned.
It's probably better to continue here anyway so that some others might join in.
So - If it's OK with you, I'll add the content of the emails to this conversation.........
tubenut said:
Hi
Mine still has the original NE5534(Signetics) opamps but I've got some OPA627s waiting to go in. However, I'd still like to test this in my CD60 to make sure I like them - before I do any unnecessary desoldering in the Arcam.
The clock can be much better. There is one multiple flip flop shared for all lines....including dig out. The ideal situation is to have a clock with multiple outputs - each clocking one flip-flop for each line.
If you don't use the digital out, disconnect it and disable its portion of the multiple flip-flop.
If you are willing to add an external clock like Guido Tent's XO2.....you can use the space from the existing clock to provide the ultimate in reclocking.
Not sure about the CDM4/19 ball bearing thing. All of my CDM4/19 have the same clamp as the arcam....with the spindle thing.
I now have D170 and a D70.3 to mess with.
I have modded the digital out scheme on the D70.3, i cut the legs responsible against the chip and removed them out of the pcb. Then stacked another 74HCU04 or whatever it was on top with the digital out legs extended with leads. All the other legs except +V and Gnd get trimmed off too. Connect ecxtended leads into dig out holes and solder PSU pins to the chip below. Not perfect but all still functions and the analogue out sound is quite a lot better now, in fact quite radical.
The CDM4/11 and 4/19 ball bearing clamps are slightly different width so hard to exchange without filing and and and.
The D170 uses CDM1MKII, so the fellow who has the 70.2 and 170, I would transplant that nice metal mech in to the player I would use most.
I read somewhere else that the according to Joco the Delta 170 transport had a lot of extra unecessary things done its digital output board. Optical decoupleing and various flip flops etc and many shared gate chips.
First I fitted a new clock, big improvement. Then i removed the whole output board and replaced it with a module that came out of an old defunct Theta Data laser disc transport, it reclocks/PLLs the digital out.This has transformned this machine in to a very capable transport. As standard it is fair.
I have modded the digital out scheme on the D70.3, i cut the legs responsible against the chip and removed them out of the pcb. Then stacked another 74HCU04 or whatever it was on top with the digital out legs extended with leads. All the other legs except +V and Gnd get trimmed off too. Connect ecxtended leads into dig out holes and solder PSU pins to the chip below. Not perfect but all still functions and the analogue out sound is quite a lot better now, in fact quite radical.
The CDM4/11 and 4/19 ball bearing clamps are slightly different width so hard to exchange without filing and and and.
The D170 uses CDM1MKII, so the fellow who has the 70.2 and 170, I would transplant that nice metal mech in to the player I would use most.
I read somewhere else that the according to Joco the Delta 170 transport had a lot of extra unecessary things done its digital output board. Optical decoupleing and various flip flops etc and many shared gate chips.
First I fitted a new clock, big improvement. Then i removed the whole output board and replaced it with a module that came out of an old defunct Theta Data laser disc transport, it reclocks/PLLs the digital out.This has transformned this machine in to a very capable transport. As standard it is fair.
Hi
I am new to the forum and new to the mods concept. After reading tons of post I have realized that I could give it a try. My old BB5 hybrid DAC would go first. I do not have service manual so it hard to work on it, if someone could share it with me that would be great.
I can see on BB5 1 PCB old PCM67P 1bit/18bit dac, glue logic PC74HC/86P/74P/00P/U04P chips, voltage regulator LM340T/317T, caps are electrolytes Rubycons 16V/25V/10V and Black Gates F 10V, polypropylene Evox PFR 63V rated, bunch of diodes, output opamps are NE5532N. PS board sports the same quality/make parts. This is quite nice assy btw.
Is there anything worthy to do with it or should I just buy this interesting DIY board
http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/LAMPUCERA/CD DAC Lampucera lampizator.html
or any other you may recommend. I am using it with DAT tape recorder so is it 24/192 or not it is not critical really however why not...
Andrew
I am new to the forum and new to the mods concept. After reading tons of post I have realized that I could give it a try. My old BB5 hybrid DAC would go first. I do not have service manual so it hard to work on it, if someone could share it with me that would be great.
I can see on BB5 1 PCB old PCM67P 1bit/18bit dac, glue logic PC74HC/86P/74P/00P/U04P chips, voltage regulator LM340T/317T, caps are electrolytes Rubycons 16V/25V/10V and Black Gates F 10V, polypropylene Evox PFR 63V rated, bunch of diodes, output opamps are NE5532N. PS board sports the same quality/make parts. This is quite nice assy btw.
Is there anything worthy to do with it or should I just buy this interesting DIY board
http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/LAMPUCERA/CD DAC Lampucera lampizator.html
or any other you may recommend. I am using it with DAT tape recorder so is it 24/192 or not it is not critical really however why not...
Andrew
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