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Old 4th June 2002, 02:14 PM   #31
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Once again, HarryHaller, try to be nice!

We are a couple of thousand people here and I believe some of us do really know what others ask. You know and I know, it can be hard to really find anything out there on the net. Many sites are batabase based and therefore often hard to search in from external search engines. If a topic is too big noone will answer and is it NOT too big I gather some of us bother to answer.

My question here at the bottom was very simple: Does anyone know whats inside a crystal oscillator of a finer model?

I asked in a other place about folded cascodes and got excellent answers from a person who really bother to find it even though he himself didn't know (all of it?). Let us continue in the same spirit as mlloyd1 and others.

Thanks to you, mlloyd1!
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Old 8th June 2002, 06:48 PM   #32
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Angry Crystal Oscillator Circuits

Hi per-Anders,
To put it mildy: my experience with crystal oscillators has been extremely checkered and frustrating.
I have built various circuits from the application notes of TCXO and other cantype oscillators manufacturers. Quite often the circuit does not work at all or oscillates at a totally wrong frequency. This is particularly true for the overtone oscillators that use the crystal at the third or fifth overtone. Your example of the Euroquartz application note was a example of a collection of bad hints.
My strong impression is that cantype oscillator manufactures don't want let us know what is inside the can....
I once opened a cheap 10MHz one and found a 74HC04 in SMT.....
Well nothing to learn there.
Also frustrating is trying to order samples or just to buy low jitter crystal oscillators. I tried to order a 125 MHz Viteonline SMT crumb, after I eased myself that a +3V supply was OK, but the stupid website yelled at me that my emailaddress is invalid. How to invalid. I receive 10 emails per day.
The whole subject of crystal oscillators is full of black magic, contradictory statements and hilarious jitter specs. Some say you need minimal drive for a overtone crystal others say just the opposite. Crystals are also different if they come from a other manufacturer. Specifications are aften difficult to get. For some frequencies you have the choice between fundamental and third overtone . But it is not printed on the crystal.
I was curious what component values you use for your clock. Which one I should ask is THE Sjostrom-clock. If you have a working solution I strongly suggest to take notes and keep it for future reference.
My most weird experience is that a 100MHz fifth overtone crystal gives a better sound than a 99 MHz third overtone crystal in my asynchronous reclocker. But both don't oscillate at the desired frequency.

Well good luck.
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Old 8th June 2002, 10:09 PM   #33
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Hi Elso, nice to have you back.

Funny, but your post title is the exact title of a nice book by Robert Matthys, which I found quite interesting. It provides lots of info on the working principles of the XOs, and a lot of practical circuits and descriptions as well. A must have From this book, I've tested almost all the discrete and IC-base XOs (at least the ones Matthys defined from fair to excellent). Can't comment on the "audio" properties of all XOs I built from this book, but all worked immediately and at the right frequency.

This one (a "Matthysian" one too) I built with a 5th overtone 98.304MHz crystal I ordered from Klove (www.klove.nl) and measured 98.30406MHz after 1 hour... Maybe I'm just lucky
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Old 9th June 2002, 10:28 PM   #34
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Smile Crystal Oscilator Circuits

Hi/Bonjour Francois,
Looks like I need to buy the book by Matthys.
The <B>AUDIO</B> properties of the oscillators are the most important properties for me. That' s why I wanted to build a Collpitts 100MHz oscillator. Did you find a example in the book by Matthys?
Lifting a circuit from the book and build it is of course something different from what am doing trying to build a new oscillator circuit with a FET.
May I sent you my overtone circuit for comment? It does improve the sound a lot with the asynchronous reclocker.
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Old 10th June 2002, 08:49 AM   #35
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Hi Elso,

First, no there's no Colpitt above 20 MHz in the book This configuration is said to have poor to fair performances and is not investigated at higher frequencies. According to Matthys, its sensivity to power supplies and stability is not that good, but he doesn't account for audio performances... Matthys mainly classifies XOs with respect to the waveform at crystal, in-circuit Q, and short term stability, this latter being a nice indication of the jitter performances of the XO.

And, yes, I agree, building an XO straight from a book's schematics is not a revolutionary work, but I had so numerous desillusions (mainly with overtone ones) with all the circuits I found on the web that I wanted to start with something working

The one I linked in my previous post gave the best audio results (amongst the three I tried) in asynchronous reclocking (incidentally it was rated as outstanding by Matthys ), but I will try to improve it with different options (BJT type, power supply, etc...). And of course, I would be happy to comment your overtone circuit, if I dare to . Thanks a lot.
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Old 10th June 2002, 03:16 PM   #36
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Francois,

have you also started experimenting with asynchronous reclocking? What are your impressions? Do you have any theory why it might be appealing?

I have not tried because
a) from a theoretical point, I would expect it to sound ghastly

b) I currently have no multibit DAC in operation (which may change soon)

Regards,

Eric
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Old 10th June 2002, 04:49 PM   #37
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Hi Eric

Yes, I've done some tests with asynchronous reclocking. I experimented it with a 98MHz clock on my old PCM63-based DAC. And it works

Subjective impressions are a more analogue sound, less listening fatigue (if any), less harshness.

But don't ask me why I haven't got a clue I haven't gone too far (as Elso did), like comparing various frequencies and XO types. This will be next step. But it was a simple mod to my DAC, and I couldn't resist to test it, even with the huge lack of theoretical background.

Give it a try
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Old 12th June 2002, 10:41 AM   #38
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Question Overtone Crystal Oscillators

Bonjour/Hi Francois,
Currently I am using a modified Colpittsoscilator with a 100 MHz off the shelve fifth overtone crystal in the asynchronous reclocker. Actually it is running at about 66 MHz. It also works with a one transistor Butleroscillator, same frequency; slightly higher output. Also tried a Pierce type oscillator from www.qsl.net/g3pho/13cm.htm . Same frequency, sound quality output not as good as the first two tried. Probably the most elegant solution is to find a <B><i>inverted mesa technology fundamental mode </B></I>100 MHz crystal.
Thus far I have found two firms on the net: Connor-Winfield and www.hy-q.co.uk No reply from my emails yet. Anyone has a alternative source for these type of crystals or any experience???
Francois, I can corroborate your findings: more analogue like sound, less harshness, less listener fatigue, better bass.
Capslock/Eic, I can feel with you as I just got a Tek 485 from Ebay.de with a rotten TIME DIV switch in the audio region. But I can look at the waveform coming from the oscillator. A theoretical explanation for the asynchronous reclocking might be to look at it as a resampling method.
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