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Old 8th May 2002, 08:38 AM   #1
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Exclamation Microsoft tolling fee from hard drive listening

What do you have to say about this article or page?

http://www.vxm.com/Impact.LinuxAV.html


Microsofts wants consumers to pay when the user wants to listen to some music or a DVD that they digital ripped from a CD to the hard drive.

This is the time to learn LINUX if you haven't done so.


LINUX is free!!!
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Old 8th May 2002, 09:11 AM   #2
jleaman is offline jleaman  Belgium
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Default Linux

May i say linux rulez hehe mandrake 8.3 with scsi and 512 megs ram and 40gig hdd linux is way better , stabler and more reliable than microsft LINUX ALL THE WAY PEOPLE

start migrating to it..
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Old 8th May 2002, 10:58 AM   #3
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Microsoft wants to do this/that etc.

I suggest you take claims by Linux camps with a pinch of salt -- it is almost like believing marketing claims and PR stunts by Oracle or Sun. The real "enemy" is RIAA, or Sony or anybody else who makes more money than the poor artists who create original material in the first place.

Linux is only free if your time has no value!

(Need an enterprise class application server? If so, it is "free" with Windows -- whereas other vendors sell their for $50K per pop or more, also on Linux.

Need the most tested web server on the planet? if so, it is "free" with Windows

Need a word processor or spreadsheet that is actually usable? If so, you can only get it for Windows because the competitor products suck so bad

Need the best programming tools on the planet (VS .NET)?

Need enterprise class message queuing? It is "free" with Windows, but you can get IBM MQ Series for Linux at high cost if you really want to

Need free updates without having to work hard to get things installed? Windows update is a very nifty feature that actually works well

Perhaps most importantly: Do you need management tools? They are actually not available for Linux.

Do you want EXTENSIVE device support?

Do you want to hire people with a standardized skill set?

Do you enjoy benefits from having ClearType work across all apps -- even old ones?

Do you want to purchase service contract with guaranteed up-time from one of a shitload of partners? If so you will find most offerings on Windows, even at 5 minutes planned downtime per year.)

There are compelling things with Linux, perhaps mostly on the server side, but it would be useful if people were not forgetting that MS has done some very good stuff -- look for example at pricing of software before MS when word processors were like $1000 a pop.

Petter
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Old 8th May 2002, 01:16 PM   #4
cyr is offline cyr  Sweden
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This is completely off topic etc, but I just had to respond to some of your points...

Quote:
Linux is only free if your time has no value!
Of course, this applies to any operating system...

Quote:
(Need an enterprise class application server? If so, it is "free" with Windows -- whereas other vendors sell their for $50K per pop or more, also on Linux.
Don't know anything about this as I've never had any need for an application server.

Quote:
Need the most tested web server on the planet? if so, it is "free" with Windows
LOL... I assume you are talking about IIS? Tested indeed, by code red et al.

I can't even begin to estimate the damage those IIS security problems caused.

The most used web server on the Internet is actually Apache, AFAIK it has never had a serious security hole and it also outperforms IIS. You can run Apache on windows if you like, but it really belongs on Linux or *BSD.

Quote:
Need a word processor or spreadsheet that is actually usable? If so, you can only get it for Windows because the competitor products suck so bad
There is some truth to this, but the situation is changing. Personally I find free alternatives quite sufficient.

Quote:
Need the best programming tools on the planet (VS .NET)?
You mean Emacs and GCC?

Seriously, except for GUI design work I find IDE:s get in the way. Even so, there are some very good IDE tools available (KDevelop, anjuta).

Quote:
Need enterprise class message queuing? It is "free" with Windows, but you can get IBM MQ Series for Linux at high cost if you really want to
Need even sure what you mean by message queuing, please elaborate...

Quote:
Need free updates without having to work hard to get things installed? Windows update is a very nifty feature that actually works well
This makes me laugh considering how simple installation and upgrading is on my Debian Linux system compared to Windows.

Ever heard of Debian APT, Red Carpet or Redhat Network for example?

Quote:
Perhaps most importantly: Do you need management tools? They are actually not available for Linux.
What exactly do you mean by management tools? Remote server management? Unix systems are *made* for that...

Quote:
Do you want EXTENSIVE device support?
Unsupported devices exist, but are increasingly uncommon.

Quote:
Do you want to hire people with a standardized skill set?
What does that have to do with anything? And why would you want to hire clones?

Quote:
Do you enjoy benefits from having ClearType work across all apps -- even old ones?
Cleartype is a nice feature, AA and subpixel rendering is a relatively new feature in X and it doesn't automatically work with all software. On the other hand, as most software is open source there is often no reason to _not_ upgrade, and it's always possible for a third party to add this support.

Quote:
Do you want to purchase service contract with guaranteed up-time from one of a shitload of partners? If so you will find most offerings on Windows, even at 5 minutes planned downtime per year.)
I really have no idea, but I'm quite impressed that people achieve that kind of uptime with windows...

Quote:
There are compelling things with Linux, perhaps mostly on the server side, but it would be useful if people were not forgetting that MS has done some very good stuff -- look for example at pricing of software before MS when word processors were like $1000 a pop.
I don't doubt that MS has had a positive impact on the development of the PC etc, but I don't think it's very logical to think we would have higher prices without their monopoly status.
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Old 8th May 2002, 01:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Petter
at 5 minutes planned downtime per year.
Yes with a cluster of about 16 Win2k Servers this kind of uptime is achievable.

Windows has it's uses, so does Linux; neither are perfect. Generally speaking though be prepared to spend more money if you choose Windows and more time if you choose Linux
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Old 8th May 2002, 02:21 PM   #6
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Default MQ Series messaging

Both the Micosoft and IBM messaging products allow data to be sent from one system to another with guaranteed delivery via API's - Extremely useful stuff.

The IBM product runs on almost any platform/OS and allows messaging between disparate platforms - It is largely used by banks, etc and in more recent years the scope of use has increased with web enabled applications.

Not sure that the Microsoft product works beyond Windows...

.... So now you know!
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Old 8th May 2002, 03:20 PM   #7
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Response to questions:

Q: Don't know anything about this as I've never had any need for an application server.

Most software vendors sell application servers. They typically charge $50K per processor .... It is built into windows but is confusingly named MTS. Chances are you will soon need an app server.

Re Apache, performance etc. I am not going into a fist fight, but it is useful to note that most DOS attacks are orchestrated using already hacked Unix machines ... All platforms have vulnerabilities and Windows ranks slightly better than Solaris according to published reports. Also, all vulnerabilities on MS platform are typically attributed to Windows, but on Unix they are attributed to the application -- which could be anything from the webserver to the media player. How many saw the very bad security flaws in Oracle and Solaris recently? How many saw a minor Windows bug all over the web?

Why do all vendors of Java specifically keep you legally bound to not publish benchmarks of their products?

Q: You mean Emacs and GCC?

Don Box uses Emacs for demos However, I mean .NET Framework. Compilers etc. are actually free if you enjoy Emacs or Notepad.

Q: Need even sure what you mean by message queuing, please elaborate...

Microsoft runs it's own message queuing natively on Windows and PocketPC. It also supports integration with other message queuing systems.

Q: What exactly do you mean by management tools? Remote server management? Unix systems are *made* for that...

Try rolling out 1000 desktops or upgrading them. Even companies with an explicit non-MS policy such as Daimler Chrysler use Windows on the client for this reason -- there are no tools to get the job done.

Q: ... why would you want to hire clones?

Who wants to have a non-standardized system when personnell is replaced? How can you "measure" whether say Linux consultant has basic competency? What do you think you have to pay to support a non-standard system?

Q: ... I'm quite impressed that people achieve that kind of uptime with windows...

There are many partners who guarantee such performance and take monetary hit if they do not deliver. They would not take such risk if they found it incredibly difficult. How many partners guarantee system uptime (applications + OS) on Linux?

You don't need massive clusters to achieve this, but how do you guarantee uptime on a non-clustered Linux box? What do you do if the power supply burns or the disk (system) crashes?

Both platforms have things going for them. I take minor offense to unsupported claims about performance, security, stability etc.

However I agree this is turning very off-topic and will refrain from extending the tread for that reason.

Petter
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Old 8th May 2002, 03:24 PM   #8
Schaef is offline Schaef  United States
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Whilst I also agree this is way off topic, but I hate it when people fall for marketing and don't actually look for themselves.

Quote:
Originally posted by Petter
Microsoft wants to do this/that etc.

I suggest you take claims by Linux camps with a pinch of salt -- it is almost like believing marketing claims and PR stunts by Oracle or Sun. The real "enemy" is RIAA, or Sony or anybody else who makes more money than the poor artists who create original material in the first place.
I absolutely agree 100% with this statement. (And I'm one of those Linux campers!) While MS is the big evil baddie of the day (Anyone remember when it was IBM?) there are other baddies telling MS to do some of these things.

Quote:
Linux is only free if your time has no value!
Again, very true.

Quote:
(Need an enterprise class application server? If so, it is "free" with Windows -- whereas other vendors sell their for $50K per pop or more, also on Linux.
And you've researched this? (I don't know anything about this, not even sure what you mean by an enterprise class application server??) If so, then fine, I'll concede the point.

Quote:
Need the most tested web server on the planet? if so, it is "free" with Windows
When did MS start shipping Apache with windows??? According to netcraft (www.netcraft.com) the currently most popular web server in the world is apache, with 56.38% of the world wide web running on it. (IIS has 31.96%)

Quote:
Need a word processor or spreadsheet that is actually usable? If so, you can only get it for Windows because the competitor products suck so bad
I'll concede this. Although I haven't tried the alternatives recently. (I've heard StarOffice has gotten better)

Quote:
Need the best programming tools on the planet (VS .NET)?
What are you smoking with this??? The product is barely on the market and you're claiming its the best in the world?!?!?!?! It wasn't even gold before the first security holes were uncovered with it!!! Why on earth would you say its the best? (Ease of programming, power, stability, security, what??) I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. (I'm also not saying Linux has the best either, by the way)

Quote:
Need enterprise class message queuing? It is "free" with Windows, but you can get IBM MQ Series for Linux at high cost if you really want to
It was elaborated that this is primarily used by banking systems and systems that require timely responses. I'll concede this as well, since I haven't looked into this at all.

Quote:
Need free updates without having to work hard to get things installed? Windows update is a very nifty feature that actually works well
Tell this to my father-in-law who had windows update tell him he needed the latest intel DMA drivers for his machine. (He's running athlons on AMD chipsets) It took a half an hour to fix this screw up!

As to Linux, I just fire up the Mandrake updater, pick an ftp site, and it gives me a list of updated software to download. I pick the list, and it installs it and its done. (Without having to reboot my computer!!!!)

Quote:
Perhaps most importantly: Do you need management tools? They are actually not available for Linux.
Are you talking about managing a system without physically walking to it?? I've been doing that with my firewall for months!!! (Its a SparcClassic running SuSE Linux, has no monitor or keyboard, try that with windows!!) With ANY *nix this is not only possible but standard practice! I can not only manage every portion of the machine remotely, I can do it using GUIs!!! (Thanks to X windows!)

Quote:
Do you want EXTENSIVE device support?
That you have to track down, install separately, reboot your computer, hope it was the right one, and hope it doesn't hose the machine. When I installed Mandrake on my machine, it auto-detected the 3Com network card, the built-in sound card, the NVIDIA video card, and all of my hard drives and set everything up for me. WITHOUT MY DOING A THING!!!

Quote:
Do you want to hire people with a standardized skill set?
And the point of this is??? Skill set in what? This makes the least sense to me. (It sounds more like market-speak than anything)

Quote:
Do you enjoy benefits from having ClearType work across all apps -- even old ones?
You can have this one.

Quote:
Do you want to purchase service contract with guaranteed up-time from one of a shitload of partners? If so you will find most offerings on Windows, even at 5 minutes planned downtime per year.)
At what cost? How many machines, what power machines, and so on. You can purchase service contracts for Linux machines as well. You don't find them as much because its like any *nix, pretty stable and pretty much just works.

Quote:
There are compelling things with Linux, perhaps mostly on the server side, but it would be useful if people were not forgetting that MS has done some very good stuff -- look for example at pricing of software before MS when word processors were like $1000 a pop.
Tell that to the school systems! They're now being required to buy software for ALL OF THEIR COMPUTERS REGARDLESS OF WHETER OR NOT THEY'RE RUNNING WINDOWS (OR EVEN CAN FOR THAT MATTER!!) (see: http://www.theregus.com/content/4/24877.html )


Quote:
Petter
While I agree with a multitude of things about MS, I have to dis-agree with some of the things as detailed above. If you want to see Linux shine, simply look at what I'm using for a firewall/internal server. Its an old SparcClassic running Linux. Its running apache, zope, mysql, dns, nfs, and numerous other things. Total cost, including software and hardware, about $25! Yes, it took a little bit of time to configure the machine, but most of the time was because I didn't know what I was doing. Apache was painless, nfs was a no-brainer, mysql was a slight problem, but that was configuring access to it. Zope caused problems, but mostly because I didn't bother to read all of the documentation. Dns took about 2 hours total to make work. (It would now take me about 15 minutes to re-configure it again, and that's just because of typing weird things in)

p.s. I just did a quick check, and it appears that this site is running on Linux with apache. (any complaints about the site?)
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Old 8th May 2002, 03:38 PM   #9
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Q: p.s. I just did a quick check, and it appears that this site is running on Linux with apache. (any complaints about the site?)


No, I like this site very much. It has been very helpful and inspiring to me and I use it every day.

Petter
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Old 8th May 2002, 05:59 PM   #10
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I work as a network tech @ a south Seattle (WA, USA) school district and have had very personal experience with that MS School Agreement Crap that Schaef linked to. They sent us the info on it, along with a letter stating that we had 60 days to audit our entire district! We have more than 8000 machines, and there are only about a dozen of us in the department! Anyways, I'll stop now, 'cause im only contributing to being off topic.
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