the perils of digital eq?

[diaspora]

Hi All

This is my first post, so please be gentle

I've done some searching on the threads and am interested in using the behringer deq2496 for eq my kit

Basically, my problem is that I've moved into the slightly higher end of hifi and finding some recordings hard to listen to - being too harsh or sibilant. Mainly on dance/ambient stuff and with female vocalists with a thin sound. This is virtually all down the recordings being now played thru a much more revealing system.
I've tried some room acoustic tweaks which have made a slight diffference. Changing cables, i/cs haven't done anything.
I really want to resist changing my kit as with good recordings/jazz its fine

Just wondering if any folks have 'successfully' used the 2496 in this way to tame harshness/sibilance? I would feed its dig out to a outboard dac.

thanks for your time

[TNT]

Hi!

My answer is based on that You don't have any major flaws in the reproduction chain like a lot of uneven harmonic distorsion or other ill will creatures.

My answer would be Yes. I own the unit and it can change the sound a lot and is a very powerful tool. I reccomend if possible, that You use it in the digital domain i.e. that if You have a driv and a external d/a, it is connected between these two units. It will then be almost transparent. (Note: almost!!!)

Thats my experiance using it in an very high quality and revealing system.

I have not yet used the analouge inputs/outputs so i I can not comment on those.

/

[SimontY]

Originally posted by diaspora
I've moved into the slightly higher end of hifi and finding some recordings hard to listen to - being too harsh or sibilant. Mainly on dance/ambient stuff and with female vocalists with a thin sound.

Hello diaspora, and welcome to diyaudio!

I've not tried it, but I seriously doubt you could 'eq' out harshness without removing or reducing positive qualities your system currently has.

I suffered harshness for a long time in my system, and I am sorry to say, there was no simple solution

I am largely clear of it now, and can enjoy even relatively poor recordings loud and clean, despite increased resolution and clarity.

Steps towards my current quite happy status included:
- use of 'oak cone feet' (Russ Andrews) on amp and cd player (good)
- continual upgrading of cd player's internals (important)
- use of Kimber 4vs and 4pr speaker cable, including internal wiring (very important)
- reworking of speaker x-over to own personal preferences (very important)
- use of cd treatment products (a bonus, can reduce harshness, and improves many aspects of cd sound)
- use of electronic baffle step correction to improve tone, to make warm (very important)
- use of (2kva) isolation transformer on amp, sound becomes less sterile, more natural - warm and spacious, ambient (quite important)
- good connections - after amp everything is hard-wired currently, not sure but I get the feeling poor connections = poor and harsh, less solid and believable sound
- plywood platform for amp (bonus)

I'd say it's different for everybody, but these are amongst my most important 'discoveries' that helped musicality, without sacrificing fidelity, or resorting to tubes, vinyl, eq, etc etc.

[lucpes]

What's your current source/pre/amp/speakers configuration?

A good setup doesn't sound harsh with 90% of recordings out there, of course good recordings are nicer to listen to but I managed to reduce the list of screechy recordings to something like 10-15% of what CD's I own after some upgrades (no wood or new cables implied ) - new CDP opamps, improved power supplies, changed capacitors in CDP and speakers, add some bypass caps in the amp and so on.

[diaspora]

Thanks for the responses so far. I'm afraid my diy skills are fairly limited, but willing to learn.
Eq, admitedly, is being used as a fixit job. Then again, folks paying loads for cables, it could argued, are pursuing an eq kind of activity (that last comment's not meant to be a provocation)

My current set up is:
pioneer dvd 747A/tag dac20
rosksan caspian (supposed to be laid back amp)
dynaudio contour 1.3 mk2 speakers

cheapish i/c and cables (but getting dynaudio/sumiko cables soon - I'm actually not a cable believer; though willing to experiment if it doesn't break the bank)

I've tried a couple of different sources and amps, and not made much of a difference. In the past I've been used to listening to low end gear, and rather flat sounding. So the new kit is a huge leap.

I believe it's a combination of being exposed to a revealing system and being a bit over-sensitive to harshness. Then again, a whole new world of sound has been opened up to me

From what I read/experienced, the contours can be brutally revealing at times. I have been considering changing them for more mellow speakers, but they are superb with decent recordings and have an awesome bass.

Also, I've demo'ed various cds in my collection in other systems, and some do sound similarly harsh. Overall, I don't think it's my kit, though I could carry out some more tweaks to tame things down.

I'm cautious that the eq approach, could be more trouble than its worth - hence this post. But if I have to resort to it on occassions, I would think in the digital domain, this could be done without too much of a compromise?? Whether it will work...

[SimontY]

Originally posted by diaspora
my diy skills are fairly limited, but willing to learn.

Good, I have no real skills, but guidance from others, and willingness/eagerness has led me to relatively great things - same amp, speakers, cd player, but a totally different listening experience...

folks paying loads for cables, it could argued, are pursuing an eq kind of activity

Sure, except the 'loads' bit, that's more a prestige thing, a status symbol. Cables will subtly change the sound of your system, or in my case, with this particular setup, and particular cable change, really really change the sound. Spend £5/m on Kimber 4PR and see if it does it for you. It won't cost you much

rosksan caspian (supposed to be laid back amp)

Well I never! Seems we have the same amp!! There is little doubt in my mind, more now than ever, that the Caspian has some intrinsic harshness, and I'm *******ed if I know what causes it I think this is reason enough to try Kimber woven cables, as the harshness/glassy edge character of my system was reduced hugely, and as we use the same amp, you probably have a good chance at success - meaning the change is likely the interaction between cable and amp or the interference brought through the cable into the amp. I am ready for the now gentlemen

I've tried a couple of different sources and amps, and not made much of a difference.

The only thing that makes 'much of a difference' on a quick listen is speakers, or other things that cause extreme colourations. It's hard to know the full value of an upgrade in a quick listen. This is one reason why blind listening and A/B listening are of limited use, IMO

I believe it's a combination of being exposed to a revealing system and being a bit over-sensitive to harshness.

Yeh, that's just what I told myself, until I started to fix it

Also, I've demo'ed various cds in my collection in other systems, and some do sound similarly harsh. Overall, I don't think it's my kit, though I could carry out some more tweaks to tame things down.

Some CDs have intrinsic harshness I believe, and some systems hide it so well that it's hard to know where it comes from sometimes - system or cd

What equipment rack, if any, do you use? Glass would be a great reason to play with tweaks - it's not the right thing to use, so cones, other feet, platforms, or even a new rack may really help you.

Have you experimented lots with toe-in? As you may know, less toe-in will likely reduce upper midrange prominence, at the expense of imaging focus.

I'm sorry I can't help you much with the eq questions you really want answering, but I feel you could probably benefit from some tweaking first

btw, not done much to my caspian yet, just used shorting RCAs on all the inputs bar the CD (small improvement), changed the internal wire from PCB to terminals to Kimber 4vs, nuded the main psu caps, added oak cone feet, and I run it with the lid off and from an isolation transformer, and sit it on a plywood plinth on wooden spikes. Some of these are worth thinking about, seriously!

ps. I realise I will be sneered at for some of my views, but personal experience tells me personal experience counts, and nothing else really matters. Other people's 'research', measurements, and experience can only tell you what to try, not what will actually do it for you.

[SimontY]

Originally posted by lucpes
What's your current source/pre/amp/speakers configuration?

A good setup doesn't sound harsh with 90% of recordings out there, of course good recordings are nicer to listen to but I managed to reduce the list of screechy recordings to something like 10-15% of what CD's I own after some upgrades (no wood or new cables implied ) - new CDP opamps, improved power supplies, changed capacitors in CDP and speakers, add some bypass caps in the amp and so on.

Hi lucpes,

Perhaps you'd care to stick your neck out and specify which upgrades seemed to reduce the problem sound, rather than those which just improved fidelity or enjoyment.

I changed my CDP's op-amps, and this didn't reduce harshness, but it did make the sound, particularly the bass more solid and fun, and more believable.

But as our friend owns a Tag DAC, I very much doubt he will want to open her up and play!

[diaspora]

Thanks for you thoughts SimontY.

Well I'm about to get some dynaudio ocos spk cables which are said to be as warm as isolda's (if you believe that sort of thing), but will also try the kimbers if there's no joy. If this cable 'tweak' works, I'll be a believer

Regarding the amp, it's bizarre how stated views can differ. Just been looking up some mag reviews of the cyrus 8, one saying that's it's 'unusually warm' the other, stating nothing of the sort! So whether the caspian is laid back, who knows, and ultimately, it comes down to the combination of components, room acoustics...

My rack is a cheapo ikea job, wooden though. But cone feet et al may be of help

I don't think my mains are up to much, so about to buy a mains block and some power chords. Again, reluctant to spend a fortune on these things. I was thinking about the olson. Any rec's would be useful. I could/should also go down the diy filter route and save a ton too. (After that, could investigate an isolation transformer)

I totally agree with you about the severe limitations of quick a/b listening. For an alternative methodology, I found this to be an interesting read
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin.../audiohell.htm

[dddac]

Originally posted by TNT
I reccomend if possible, that You use it in the digital domain i.e. that if You have a driv and a external d/a, it is connected between these two units. It will then be almost transparent. (Note: almost!!!)
/

This sounds interesting. I just bought for testing purpose this unit as well, because of its shear endless possibilities. The only doubt I gad was on the quality of the output dacs / analogue outputs. Now I could not find a description how to use the unit in digital domain

how do you do that?

doede

[b-square]

There's nothing to "believe" in cables changing the sound: they can and it is straightforward to measure, whether first order such as cable capacitance or inductance, or higher order such as measurement of the properties of the sound coming out of the speakers. Like so much else, though, the science is irrelevant if you don't notice the difference.

You definitely have to swap things around, including cables, but you don't have to spend a lot on things to get sound you like. I swapped out some very nice silver, bi-wire speaker cables for a much cheaper single run of copper and was immediately happier with the sound. Low-end cables can sound great and high-end cables can be had for reasonable money if bought used.

The real trouble starts when you get the upgrade bug _after_ you finally get the sound you want