Hi to all!
I currently own a mint condition Sony CDP XA 50 ES and while I like the overall sound I think it could be a little smoother and airy and not so dry.
I have some limited skills with electronics so I was wondering what would be the first steo to look at upgrading this player.
By reading aroud I have noticed that many suggest a clock upgrade first.
Also where could I find the workshop manual for this machine?
Should I look for better performing opamps in the analogue section or just install a zapfilter from LC audio?
Any one with information on this players please give me some information as i know very little about the inside of this machine.
I have seen this player heavily modified by Gruensch company in germany and was wondering what they did, any German members to help me out?www.gruensch.de
Best regards to all !:
I currently own a mint condition Sony CDP XA 50 ES and while I like the overall sound I think it could be a little smoother and airy and not so dry.
I have some limited skills with electronics so I was wondering what would be the first steo to look at upgrading this player.
By reading aroud I have noticed that many suggest a clock upgrade first.
Also where could I find the workshop manual for this machine?
Should I look for better performing opamps in the analogue section or just install a zapfilter from LC audio?
Any one with information on this players please give me some information as i know very little about the inside of this machine.
I have seen this player heavily modified by Gruensch company in germany and was wondering what they did, any German members to help me out?www.gruensch.de
Best regards to all !:
Sony XA50ES upgrade
Hi, Please see this post of mine:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=digital&n=69863&highlight=elso+sony&r=&session=
For the manual contact me by email.
Hi, Please see this post of mine:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=digital&n=69863&highlight=elso+sony&r=&session=
For the manual contact me by email.
Sony CDP
Well Noogie, my "love affair" with the Sony is over. Currently I am using a Philips CD931.
I must emphasize that I did not solve the two-clock problem.
Also not all Sony ES models are alike. In later models f.a. the CDPXA30ES and the SCD-1 only one 45.1584 MHz clock is used.
But the clock mod. is the best start.
noogie said:As you seem to be THE man to talk to here as the Sony ES man, my first question ,where do I start?
Consider me a total novice....
Well Noogie, my "love affair" with the Sony is over. Currently I am using a Philips CD931.
I must emphasize that I did not solve the two-clock problem.
Also not all Sony ES models are alike. In later models f.a. the CDPXA30ES and the SCD-1 only one 45.1584 MHz clock is used.
But the clock mod. is the best start.
Well Elso, to bad you 2 had to go seperate ways
Would you suggest your clock or a premade one? While my skills poor I know people who are bit better and have the right equipment.That Swoboda mod costs about 1500 E so its out of my budget and the Gruensch as well if little cheaper but still shipping 15 kg to germany and back wont be cheap.
Would you suggest your clock or a premade one? While my skills poor I know people who are bit better and have the right equipment.That Swoboda mod costs about 1500 E so its out of my budget and the Gruensch as well if little cheaper but still shipping 15 kg to germany and back wont be cheap.
Clock mod for Sony
Yes the Swoboda mod is VERY expensive.
Hi Noogie, every clock creator finds his own the best.noogie said:Well Elso, to bad you 2 had to go seperate ways
Would you suggest your clock or a premade one? While my skills poor I know people who are bit better and have the right equipment.That Swoboda mod costs about 1500 E so its out of my budget and the Gruensch as well if little cheaper but still shipping 15 kg to germany and back wont be cheap.
Yes the Swoboda mod is VERY expensive.
So what is the average cost of your clock in its full capacity?
Is it easy to build and install? I assume you dont sell those PCB boards...
You said there are 2 clocks operating at different speeds, can I build 2 seperate clocks?
Both LC audio and Gruensh only modify one of those and I think it
is the master clock only. Could you have look at the Grunsch mod,that one is very fascinating to me and let me know what is your opinion about it. It seems very fleshed out.Thanks for swift replies!
Is it easy to build and install? I assume you dont sell those PCB boards...
You said there are 2 clocks operating at different speeds, can I build 2 seperate clocks?
Both LC audio and Gruensh only modify one of those and I think it
is the master clock only. Could you have look at the Grunsch mod,that one is very fascinating to me and let me know what is your opinion about it. It seems very fleshed out.Thanks for swift replies!
Clock Synchronising
Hello,
Yes the KWAK-CLOCK is easy to build. Installation is not very easy as you have to take out the audioboard to get underneath for desoldering the crystal amd the two small caps. See this recent thread for building f.a.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26597
In your Sony two clocks are operating at different frequencies. It is not a problem to replace both clocks but these have to be synchronised!. That's the problem I did not solve.
So the best you can do is replacing the 45.1584MHz clock used for the Delta-Sigma DAC and hope for the best for the 16.9344 MHz clock that still has the CMOS oscillator.
Or if you are using your player only as a transport with an external DAC, replace the 16.9344MHz clock.
I did have a look at the Gruensh mod but did not find much information.
Hello,
Yes the KWAK-CLOCK is easy to build. Installation is not very easy as you have to take out the audioboard to get underneath for desoldering the crystal amd the two small caps. See this recent thread for building f.a.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26597
In your Sony two clocks are operating at different frequencies. It is not a problem to replace both clocks but these have to be synchronised!. That's the problem I did not solve.
So the best you can do is replacing the 45.1584MHz clock used for the Delta-Sigma DAC and hope for the best for the 16.9344 MHz clock that still has the CMOS oscillator.
Or if you are using your player only as a transport with an external DAC, replace the 16.9344MHz clock.
I did have a look at the Gruensh mod but did not find much information.
Hey noogie and Elso,
I have also half way upgrading my Sony CDP-XB930 which is basicly built the same way just from a little cheaper category.
As for clock in this player, the 45MHz clock is the most important one that is actually feeding the DAC chips (both of them - I'll come back to it later). The 16MHz clock is used for the transport part and is created using kind of resonant circuit that is "clocked" by the 45MHz clock. It is not the classic oscillator type. So basicly I consider this not to be as big of a problem as Elso describes. It seems that changing the 45MHz clock still gives the same magnitude of change as for so many other players.
There is another and in my mind far more serious problem is this player (actually the hole generation of Sony players) that there are basicly two DACs. The first one is double balanced voltage output DAC which is followed by what Sony calls a CURRENT PULSE DAC. This last DAC takes the voltage signal and converts it to current signal.
This is in my mind the critical point that damages sound the most + the huge amount of opamps after DAC in original schematic.
What I have done and also one of my friends (he has XA30ES) is to take the signal out after the first voltage output DAC. Then do a more or less regular low pass filtering and to the output terminals.
I have a Borbely Supper Buffer after the DAC around which is formed a 3rd order LP filter. My friend uses his own discreet opamp based on JFETs and the filter is also built around the same "opamp".
Everything that you mention as faults in current setup is much improved + more.
Ergo
I have also half way upgrading my Sony CDP-XB930 which is basicly built the same way just from a little cheaper category.
As for clock in this player, the 45MHz clock is the most important one that is actually feeding the DAC chips (both of them - I'll come back to it later). The 16MHz clock is used for the transport part and is created using kind of resonant circuit that is "clocked" by the 45MHz clock. It is not the classic oscillator type. So basicly I consider this not to be as big of a problem as Elso describes. It seems that changing the 45MHz clock still gives the same magnitude of change as for so many other players.
There is another and in my mind far more serious problem is this player (actually the hole generation of Sony players) that there are basicly two DACs. The first one is double balanced voltage output DAC which is followed by what Sony calls a CURRENT PULSE DAC. This last DAC takes the voltage signal and converts it to current signal.
This is in my mind the critical point that damages sound the most + the huge amount of opamps after DAC in original schematic.
What I have done and also one of my friends (he has XA30ES) is to take the signal out after the first voltage output DAC. Then do a more or less regular low pass filtering and to the output terminals.
I have a Borbely Supper Buffer after the DAC around which is formed a 3rd order LP filter. My friend uses his own discreet opamp based on JFETs and the filter is also built around the same "opamp".
Everything that you mention as faults in current setup is much improved + more.
Ergo
Noogie,
You did mention that you posess limited electronic skills, so why not begin with simple, but effective, tweeks like a different power cord, different capacitors, deadening the housing with bitumen. You can get some nice results from this, it isn't to difficult, it will not cost you a lot of money and you will get get to know cd-player a lot better in the proces.
For instance, changing the power cord on my cdp-xa5es gave good results. More depth and more airy. The cord did cost me about 5 euro, but the result suggests a lot more.
Luuk
The Netherlands
You did mention that you posess limited electronic skills, so why not begin with simple, but effective, tweeks like a different power cord, different capacitors, deadening the housing with bitumen. You can get some nice results from this, it isn't to difficult, it will not cost you a lot of money and you will get get to know cd-player a lot better in the proces.
For instance, changing the power cord on my cdp-xa5es gave good results. More depth and more airy. The cord did cost me about 5 euro, but the result suggests a lot more.
Luuk
The Netherlands
Noogie,
You yourself can do a lot to improve your Sony!
You can add ferrite beads, a filtered IEC mains inlet, dampen the drive with bitumen, without having the technical knowledge. For the rest of the tweaks (better components) you have to find a adress near you, to let them modify your player for you.
René
You yourself can do a lot to improve your Sony!
You can add ferrite beads, a filtered IEC mains inlet, dampen the drive with bitumen, without having the technical knowledge. For the rest of the tweaks (better components) you have to find a adress near you, to let them modify your player for you.
René
Thanks for all the info!
Yeah, while clock and opamp changes will prove the most improvement I also think that I will start small and then work my way up. I have 3 meters of Supra lo-rad powercable and will first replace the power cord. Capacitors I will have a look at bit later as well as the opamps. Have seen review here in Finland where they put the Zapfilter in the same sony and said it was improved slightly.
That will be last.I dont want to modify the daylights out of it just update to newer things those that I can,so I dont think I will be messing around inside too much!
As for letting it get modifified, it is just too expensive and there isnt anyone here in Finland who offers that kind of services. Think I will take the Gruensch mod as a basis.
two power outputs, asymmetrically connected in parallel in parallel, output impedance 1 ohm
- adjustable linearization of the frequency response for digital filter DF1
- oscillation decoupling of the equipment by SSC pucks
- two paged out plug power packs
Anyone can tell me what that means
Yeah, while clock and opamp changes will prove the most improvement I also think that I will start small and then work my way up. I have 3 meters of Supra lo-rad powercable and will first replace the power cord. Capacitors I will have a look at bit later as well as the opamps. Have seen review here in Finland where they put the Zapfilter in the same sony and said it was improved slightly.
That will be last.I dont want to modify the daylights out of it just update to newer things those that I can,so I dont think I will be messing around inside too much!
As for letting it get modifified, it is just too expensive and there isnt anyone here in Finland who offers that kind of services. Think I will take the Gruensch mod as a basis.
two power outputs, asymmetrically connected in parallel in parallel, output impedance 1 ohm
- adjustable linearization of the frequency response for digital filter DF1
- oscillation decoupling of the equipment by SSC pucks
- two paged out plug power packs
Anyone can tell me what that means
Yup, will replace thepowercord first and also to sime time to look closely at the damping. There is lot of damping to be done as aal the boards are semi floating arrangement but the drive looks to be rather more difficult to dampen. All the caps are elna's and burr brown opamps. Dont know if really worth while to replace caps... opamps could help smoothen sound a little. What would you guys suggest? Thanks air,when in helsinki will go get some.Elso, how many pages in the service manual?
Sony CDPXA 50ES
Hi Noogie,
The servicemanual has about 74 pages.
Personally I don't believe in damping mods whether it would be on the crystal, the case or elsewhere.
The clock mod will be the greatest change and secondly the opamps if you retain the original situation.
But I would keep the OPA2604 for IV conversion.
noogie said:
Hi Noogie,
The servicemanual has about 74 pages.
Personally I don't believe in damping mods whether it would be on the crystal, the case or elsewhere.
The clock mod will be the greatest change and secondly the opamps if you retain the original situation.
But I would keep the OPA2604 for IV conversion.
I still feel that this series of Sony players has some major shortcomings on electronics side. You can play around with power cords and add bitumen and it will result in slight changes and most likely for the better. But when you have a chance to compare the original output and a new analog stage getting it's signal from the first DAC the change is so huge that the two are hard to believe to be coming from the same player.
In my own player I have at the moment a situation where I have kept the original signal path and output and then added the Borbely buffer which gets the signal in parallel from the first DAC. For this I have installed an additional pair of RCA sockets on backside. I have not changed the clock yet nor made any mods to power supply or anything else and already if you switch between the two the diffrence is huge.
I have also heared from a 30ES player what doing all the mods sound like. My friend has done it all.... current pulse dac and old analog stage out, Tent clock, custom JFET opamp and power supply mods in. And the sound is simply wonderful. Absolutely no graininess as in original Sony output, deep and very airy soundstage etc.
Basicly what I want to say is that you can amuse yourself by doing the simple mods, but I think you won't even hear the full benefit as the player as is is not transparent enough. That is why I started with just a new analog stage - I want to be able to really hear all the next mods.
Ergo
In my own player I have at the moment a situation where I have kept the original signal path and output and then added the Borbely buffer which gets the signal in parallel from the first DAC. For this I have installed an additional pair of RCA sockets on backside. I have not changed the clock yet nor made any mods to power supply or anything else and already if you switch between the two the diffrence is huge.
I have also heared from a 30ES player what doing all the mods sound like. My friend has done it all.... current pulse dac and old analog stage out, Tent clock, custom JFET opamp and power supply mods in. And the sound is simply wonderful. Absolutely no graininess as in original Sony output, deep and very airy soundstage etc.
Basicly what I want to say is that you can amuse yourself by doing the simple mods, but I think you won't even hear the full benefit as the player as is is not transparent enough. That is why I started with just a new analog stage - I want to be able to really hear all the next mods.
Ergo
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