I'm currently designing a dac for a dedicated music pc. It may go through a few generations but eventually it will be something that anyone in this forum could be proud of. I'm so grateful for the previous work on dacs documented in this forum, but can we step into the future a bit further?
While researching for this project, I became convinced that the pc should be considered THE best source for music, better than or at worst equal to any disc player, however a survey of diyAudio forums would give one the impression that disc players are better or at least more worthy of diy effort.
Using my current M-Audio Delta 410 soundcard and quiet-enhanced pc, either playing through the analog outs or using s/pdif into a Krell A/V Std, the sound is already in the "nice" category. And this is just using std 16b wav files or flac or 192kbps ogg or wma. It's hard to imagine what will be possible later with my new dacs plus digital crossovers, equalization, attenuation and so forth.
I have had fun learning Linux and can see that there is a huge diy playground of basically free software to make a low-cost, advanced player. I've been able to get good sound from both Linux and Windows and will probably continue using both in the future.
There's been a small bit of discussion previously on this topic in diyAudio but other forums are currently ahead in this area.
So, can we have a good discussion about the promise of the pc for music and where it fits into your diy hifi plans? Why do so many of you spend so much effort on disc players when pc's would take you further?
Oh - please, please, please no arguments about macs vs. pc's
(I'm not trying to promote a particular flavor of computer), no discussions of mp3 players 
, and if your only experience with computer sound is with a Creative SoundBlaster of any generation or Turtle Beach Santa Cruz or any of that ilk, please DON'T bother posting
. And if you still think pc's are always fan-noisy or hard-drive-noisy, etc, please hesitate before complaining in that direction
. Too many people already have silent or near-silent machines. 
While researching for this project, I became convinced that the pc should be considered THE best source for music, better than or at worst equal to any disc player, however a survey of diyAudio forums would give one the impression that disc players are better or at least more worthy of diy effort.
Using my current M-Audio Delta 410 soundcard and quiet-enhanced pc, either playing through the analog outs or using s/pdif into a Krell A/V Std, the sound is already in the "nice" category. And this is just using std 16b wav files or flac or 192kbps ogg or wma. It's hard to imagine what will be possible later with my new dacs plus digital crossovers, equalization, attenuation and so forth.
I have had fun learning Linux and can see that there is a huge diy playground of basically free software to make a low-cost, advanced player. I've been able to get good sound from both Linux and Windows and will probably continue using both in the future.
There's been a small bit of discussion previously on this topic in diyAudio but other forums are currently ahead in this area.
So, can we have a good discussion about the promise of the pc for music and where it fits into your diy hifi plans? Why do so many of you spend so much effort on disc players when pc's would take you further?
Oh - please, please, please no arguments about macs vs. pc's
(I'm not trying to promote a particular flavor of computer), no discussions of mp3 players , and if your only experience with computer sound is with a Creative SoundBlaster of any generation or Turtle Beach Santa Cruz or any of that ilk, please DON'T bother posting. And if you still think pc's are always fan-noisy or hard-drive-noisy, etc, please hesitate before complaining in that direction. Too many people already have silent or near-silent machines. For windows use this player ( http://www.foobar2000.org ) 24 bit out capability, resampling possible, using ASIO output plugin ( http://www3.cypress.ne.jp/otachan/foo_output_asio(exe).html ) and compress your 16bit wavs securely ripped using this ( http://exactaudiocopy.org ) to lossless ( http://flac.sourceforge.net/ ) or very high quality lossy compression ( http://www.rarewares.org/mpc.html )
Setup guide for ripping/conversion here: http://www.rex-guide.de.vu/
More PC-audio related discussions at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org and http://www.avsforum.com in the HTPC section.
For the M-Audio 410 itself, if using analog out, try to locate the two 470uF/16V caps PS filtering caps, replace with quality low esr (Panasonic FC) 2200uF/16V optionally bypassed with 0.1uF mylar (polyester green cap). Change all NE5532 to OPA2134 (or AD8620 expensive!). Bypass the output coupling caps for out 1 and out 2 with wire and check for offset. Last, do not use Monitor Mixer to control volume if you do not have a preamplifier like me, it slightly degrades the sound.
Setup guide for ripping/conversion here: http://www.rex-guide.de.vu/
More PC-audio related discussions at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org and http://www.avsforum.com in the HTPC section.
For the M-Audio 410 itself, if using analog out, try to locate the two 470uF/16V caps PS filtering caps, replace with quality low esr (Panasonic FC) 2200uF/16V optionally bypassed with 0.1uF mylar (polyester green cap). Change all NE5532 to OPA2134 (or AD8620 expensive!). Bypass the output coupling caps for out 1 and out 2 with wire and check for offset. Last, do not use Monitor Mixer to control volume if you do not have a preamplifier like me, it slightly degrades the sound.
Further
I'm hoping some people with more experience - like lucpes who posted while I was writing this
- will discuss some of the ways their pc's have extended the quality and experience of music playing or at least what they're currently attempting.
However, it is clear that some useful aspects of computer playback are (in no particular order):
- playlists (avoids interruptions of changing cd's and skipping past yucky songs)
- playlists (no more disc jockey at parties)
- file serving (allows my daughter to play music without scratching cd's)
- integration (many formats on the same player, eg cd, dvd, mp3, internet radio...)
- software upgrades (codecs, player interfaces, dsp...)
- synergy (you already use a pc and would benefit from learning more about it)
- instant music (you can play Pink Floyd and Beethoven tracks back to back)
- recording & mixing (musicians already do this on their pc daw's)
- software dsp (you can split 10 surround channels or feed hi/mid/low channels)
- software dsp (make your listening room sound like the Mormon Tabernacle)
- software dsp (volume control - avoid spending $$$ on stepped attenuators)
- software dsp (future software will be able to "fix" original source problems)
- organization (where did that Claudio Arrau version of Etudes go???)
- consolidation (how about integrating pc, dac, gc amp, etc all in one box?)
Can I stop for now?
Needless to say, Linux, open-source-software development and pc hardware are also fun diy subjects on their own.
PC hardware can be cheap to obtain for the diy'er due to the huge volume of this business and the rapid replacement of last generation models. Or it can be very expensive if that appeals to you. The dramatic evolution each year automatically pumps up your music player with more storage, more bandwidth, more user interfaces,...
Enough for now.
-Robert
I'm hoping some people with more experience - like lucpes who posted while I was writing this
- will discuss some of the ways their pc's have extended the quality and experience of music playing or at least what they're currently attempting. However, it is clear that some useful aspects of computer playback are (in no particular order):
- playlists (avoids interruptions of changing cd's and skipping past yucky songs)
- playlists (no more disc jockey at parties)
- file serving (allows my daughter to play music without scratching cd's)
- integration (many formats on the same player, eg cd, dvd, mp3, internet radio...)
- software upgrades (codecs, player interfaces, dsp...)
- synergy (you already use a pc and would benefit from learning more about it)
- instant music (you can play Pink Floyd and Beethoven tracks back to back)
- recording & mixing (musicians already do this on their pc daw's)
- software dsp (you can split 10 surround channels or feed hi/mid/low channels)
- software dsp (make your listening room sound like the Mormon Tabernacle)
- software dsp (volume control - avoid spending $$$ on stepped attenuators)
- software dsp (future software will be able to "fix" original source problems)
- organization (where did that Claudio Arrau version of Etudes go???)
- consolidation (how about integrating pc, dac, gc amp, etc all in one box?)
Can I stop for now?
Needless to say, Linux, open-source-software development and pc hardware are also fun diy subjects on their own.
PC hardware can be cheap to obtain for the diy'er due to the huge volume of this business and the rapid replacement of last generation models. Or it can be very expensive if that appeals to you
. The dramatic evolution each year automatically pumps up your music player with more storage, more bandwidth, more user interfaces,...Enough for now.
-Robert
So do you have great pc sound?
lucpes,
Great post and thanks for the useful M-Audio hints. I'm skipping those mods and going for all-digital to an external dac but most people would be surprised how good the sound is (and can be if mod'd) directly from the analog outs from this type of card (there are many others in the same $US150 category). I've been listening for about the last 4 hours to Radio Paradise (eclectic intelligent) over the internet and it's been fun without interruption and definitely no fatigue.
Does anyone have sound that they believe is as good as the cd players discussed throughout this forum?
-Robert
lucpes,
Great post and thanks for the useful M-Audio hints. I'm skipping those mods and going for all-digital to an external dac but most people would be surprised how good the sound is (and can be if mod'd) directly from the analog outs from this type of card (there are many others in the same $US150 category). I've been listening for about the last 4 hours to Radio Paradise (eclectic intelligent) over the internet and it's been fun without interruption and definitely no fatigue.
Does anyone have sound that they believe is as good as the cd players discussed throughout this forum?
-Robert
There is no reason why you couldnt get high end CD player quality audio out of a PC.
The main problems that people come across are:
- Power supply noise (use optical SPDIF to get around this)
- General PC Noise (move it into another room)
- Jitter (HQ clock mods for soundcards?)
If you address these 3 problems, you should be able to get top quality sound.
As for your DAC question, i built this for use with my PC:
http://www.overclockers.com.au/~mwp/dac3/
Im just about to start building another that has 6 channels which ill use wth brutefir for speaker xover and room EQ.
The main problems that people come across are:
- Power supply noise (use optical SPDIF to get around this)
- General PC Noise (move it into another room)
- Jitter (HQ clock mods for soundcards?)
If you address these 3 problems, you should be able to get top quality sound.
As for your DAC question, i built this for use with my PC:
http://www.overclockers.com.au/~mwp/dac3/
Im just about to start building another that has 6 channels which ill use wth brutefir for speaker xover and room EQ.
Re: Further
yeah, all except for the final point are matters of interface and convenience. Not one of them make anything sound better. Thus they are unimportant to me. Get an IPod and you've got all your ease of use.
As for the last one - when that stuff is actually ready for prime time, get back to me. I see the potential, but until we get to a point where you can get a cleaner SPDIF signal out of a PC than out of a high-end transport, without becoming a sound card engineer, I'll stick to old fashioned CDs. Jitter, noise of the PC (expensive to build totally silent, especially if you want a large array of hard drives in it), and all the switching power supply crap that permeates a PC just make we kick back and wait.
Peter
RFScheer said:
yeah, all except for the final point are matters of interface and convenience. Not one of them make anything sound better. Thus they are unimportant to me. Get an IPod and you've got all your ease of use.
As for the last one - when that stuff is actually ready for prime time, get back to me. I see the potential, but until we get to a point where you can get a cleaner SPDIF signal out of a PC than out of a high-end transport, without becoming a sound card engineer, I'll stick to old fashioned CDs. Jitter, noise of the PC (expensive to build totally silent, especially if you want a large array of hard drives in it), and all the switching power supply crap that permeates a PC just make we kick back and wait.
Peter
PC music player choices
MWP,
Enjoyed looking through your pics and schematic! Obviously you've spent years getting to this stage and it looks great
. Since you are continuing on with a next-gen project, you must think a) it's fun, b) you're optimistic about benefits and c) you haven't reached perfection yet.
Have you compared your Burr-Brown config vs. anything else?
What components will you put into next-gen?
Have you compared sound vs. high-end cd player(s)?
Based solely on reading the work of of others and my own unworthy ideas, I am planning a separate super-regulator power supply for each analog supply pin (receiver, dac, digital attenuator) and LT1962 series regulators for digital supplies. I'm expecting to use a Tent clock (or can this be improved with Valpey-Fisher XO?) and perhaps sync the soundcard to it as well.
Regarding PC fan etc noise, I've greatly improved my current office music pc with quiet Nexus PSU, CPU cooler and chassis fan, removed the video card fan and mod'd the case with simple sound deadening. Could and will go much further until it's a non-issue. Next step is a better case and then a simple muffle cover to go over the whole case. And I'm moving my main Linux workstation out of the room using a CAT-5 cable KVM extender (1st try didn't work though using IOGEAR GCE700
).
Regarding isolation between pc and dac, I've just received a few transformers from Mini-Circuits (T4-6T) and intend to use one for s/pdif input. I'm assuming most people would vote against toslink and I've heard that usb might have interruptions.
Haven't yet decided how or whether to reduce electrical supply and EMI noise to the sound-card. The experience of others here would be really useful.
Nobody yet has addressed why they prefer to work on disc players and avoid pc's. I'm still curious. (pburke posted of course while I was writing this and his point about the quality of the s/pdif coming out of the soundcard is the crux of the whole issue, isn't it? How important is that or can improve the jitter enough by reclocking in the dac and master-clocking the sc?).
-Robert
MWP,
Enjoyed looking through your pics and schematic! Obviously you've spent years getting to this stage and it looks great
. Since you are continuing on with a next-gen project, you must think a) it's fun, b) you're optimistic about benefits and c) you haven't reached perfection yet.Have you compared your Burr-Brown config vs. anything else?
What components will you put into next-gen?
Have you compared sound vs. high-end cd player(s)?
Based solely on reading the work of of others and my own unworthy ideas, I am planning a separate super-regulator power supply for each analog supply pin (receiver, dac, digital attenuator) and LT1962 series regulators for digital supplies. I'm expecting to use a Tent clock (or can this be improved with Valpey-Fisher XO?) and perhaps sync the soundcard to it as well.
Regarding PC fan etc noise, I've greatly improved my current office music pc with quiet Nexus PSU, CPU cooler and chassis fan, removed the video card fan and mod'd the case with simple sound deadening. Could and will go much further until it's a non-issue. Next step is a better case and then a simple muffle cover to go over the whole case. And I'm moving my main Linux workstation out of the room using a CAT-5 cable KVM extender (1st try didn't work though using IOGEAR GCE700
). Regarding isolation between pc and dac, I've just received a few transformers from Mini-Circuits (T4-6T) and intend to use one for s/pdif input. I'm assuming most people would vote against toslink and I've heard that usb might have interruptions.
Haven't yet decided how or whether to reduce electrical supply and EMI noise to the sound-card. The experience of others here would be really useful.
Nobody yet has addressed why they prefer to work on disc players and avoid pc's. I'm still curious. (pburke posted of course while I was writing this and his point about the quality of the s/pdif coming out of the soundcard is the crux of the whole issue, isn't it? How important is that or can improve the jitter enough by reclocking in the dac and master-clocking the sc?).
-Robert
The debate
pburke has posted the first salvo from the disc-player "camp" to join the debate.
Ok, fair enough, let's dismiss all the advantages of interface and convenience for this debate.
However, let's look at pburke's sweeping dismissal of all my points as unrelated to better sound?
My daughter scratches cd's. They don't sound very good after that! Many of you married people (but of course not all) are in the same boat as me on this one
.
Integrating many formats into one player has the potential to remove lots of other sources from your music system and perhaps could improve sound by eliminating the preamp/source-selector from the signal path for example. That's for all of us who like to hear good quality radio or mp3's sometimes. I think it's funny to devote entire music systems to that single hi-end cd player.
Software upgrades are obviously very important to sound quality. Does your cd player get upgraded over the internet? Ipod's are more upgradable than that!
To be a bit more clear, software dsp is my main point about improving sound compared with a cd transport. As MWP has already posted in agreement, you can implement a digital crossover, which will obviously allow you to remove that troublesome analog hardware element from your signal path, assuming you have a crossover in the first place. Experimenting with crossover settings with software is a whole new ball-game compared with those expensive, time-consuming actives and passives.
Similarly, digital volume control can be implemented, as Wadia has done, without degrading sound and this saves more than just the $$$ for those high-end attenuators. Eliminating hardware attenuators without degrading the digital source MUST improve the sound. Does anyone know if there's a good software volume control yet?
There is HUGE potential for software dsp to improve your music in other ways. It's a diy paradise (or hell if you don't like vast, wide-open opportunities).
Anyone who claims to be an audiophile, even a cheap diy audiophile, and believes pc's are expensive (pburke claimed mod'ing a pc for quietness is expensive), that's not even putting up a good fight. You are trying to tell me that it costs less to create a high-end transport than to mod your pc for the purpose???? I'm seeing probably hundreds of posts in this forum discussing new and mod'd transports that people have spent comparable and higher $ on.
I'm wondering whether people just like watching the disc spin round and round
?
-Robert
pburke has posted the first salvo from the disc-player "camp" to join the debate.
Ok, fair enough, let's dismiss all the advantages of interface and convenience for this debate.
However, let's look at pburke's sweeping dismissal of all my points as unrelated to better sound?
My daughter scratches cd's. They don't sound very good after that! Many of you married people (but of course not all) are in the same boat as me on this one
.Integrating many formats into one player has the potential to remove lots of other sources from your music system and perhaps could improve sound by eliminating the preamp/source-selector from the signal path for example. That's for all of us who like to hear good quality radio or mp3's sometimes. I think it's funny to devote entire music systems to that single hi-end cd player.
Software upgrades are obviously very important to sound quality. Does your cd player get upgraded over the internet? Ipod's are more upgradable than that!
To be a bit more clear, software dsp is my main point about improving sound compared with a cd transport. As MWP has already posted in agreement, you can implement a digital crossover, which will obviously allow you to remove that troublesome analog hardware element from your signal path, assuming you have a crossover in the first place. Experimenting with crossover settings with software is a whole new ball-game compared with those expensive, time-consuming actives and passives.
Similarly, digital volume control can be implemented, as Wadia has done, without degrading sound and this saves more than just the $$$ for those high-end attenuators. Eliminating hardware attenuators without degrading the digital source MUST improve the sound. Does anyone know if there's a good software volume control yet?
There is HUGE potential for software dsp to improve your music in other ways. It's a diy paradise (or hell if you don't like vast, wide-open opportunities).
Anyone who claims to be an audiophile, even a cheap diy audiophile, and believes pc's are expensive (pburke claimed mod'ing a pc for quietness is expensive), that's not even putting up a good fight. You are trying to tell me that it costs less to create a high-end transport than to mod your pc for the purpose???? I'm seeing probably hundreds of posts in this forum discussing new and mod'd transports that people have spent comparable and higher $ on.
I'm wondering whether people just like watching the disc spin round and round
? -Robert
Re: The debate
a few replies (I actually work with digital audio all day long, so I am not really in that "CD spinning camp" - I just like ot listen to music in high fidelity when I take the time to do so, and the PC solution doesn't promise me that right now.
As for your daughter - my kids scratch their CDs, they don't touch mine, and if they did, they'd be scratching my back CD-R dupe of a master that's tucked away in a filing cabinet anyway. I use EAC to create better than store bought CDs for playback - like I said, I don't mind the PCs when they do what they do better than other solutions.
Software upgrades? you mean "bug fixes?" There is no software in my player. Just hardware, and when it doesn't work right, I'll replace those parts. Works for me. As for Wadia - I had one of these in my system last summer. Wow - what an overpriced heavyweight. It just sounded totally flat and without soul (latest firmware updates installed), especially fed directly to the power amps via digital volume control. I guess it does need it's quarterly software updates until they figure out how to do it right. The Wadia owner left rather disgruntled from my house, probably contemplating what he could get for that thing on Audiogon. My tweaked $250 player clearly outperformed it.
All the other things you list are either not available at this point (I'd love a digital crossover, then feed the output to a stereo 3-way attenuator and send it off to 6 amps, but we're just not quite there yet unless you buy dedicated hardare for mucho $$$), or are a matter of convenience.
But back to the key issues that keep me from getting into a PC-based transport and beyond: As far as I undestand jitter, it is an issue for data coming off a hard drive just like off a CD - something has to know at what pace to feed it to the output - SPDIF or whatever - and that something ideally needs to be in synch with your DAC. If that cna be resolved at a clearly better performance level than current CD transport technology can do, I'm all game. The PC noise can easily be eliminated - I have CAT-5 throughout the house and probably would run a server downstairs with a noiseless laptop or custom fanless PC as a control source in the listening room. Meanwhile, I will just keep spinning CDs and enjoy the music. I don't shuffle - I listen to entire albums. When I don't sit down to listen, there is no music.
Peter
RFScheer said:pburke has posted the first salvo from the disc-player "camp" to join the debate.
My daughter scratches cd's. They don't sound very good after that!
Integrating many formats into one player has the potential to remove lots of other sources from your music system
Software upgrades are obviously very important to sound quality.
I'm wondering whether people just like watching the disc spin round and round
-Robert
a few replies (I actually work with digital audio all day long, so I am not really in that "CD spinning camp" - I just like ot listen to music in high fidelity when I take the time to do so, and the PC solution doesn't promise me that right now.
As for your daughter - my kids scratch their CDs, they don't touch mine, and if they did, they'd be scratching my back CD-R dupe of a master that's tucked away in a filing cabinet anyway. I use EAC to create better than store bought CDs for playback - like I said, I don't mind the PCs when they do what they do better than other solutions.
Software upgrades? you mean "bug fixes?"
There is no software in my player. Just hardware, and when it doesn't work right, I'll replace those parts. Works for me. As for Wadia - I had one of these in my system last summer. Wow - what an overpriced heavyweight. It just sounded totally flat and without soul (latest firmware updates installed), especially fed directly to the power amps via digital volume control. I guess it does need it's quarterly software updates until they figure out how to do it right. The Wadia owner left rather disgruntled from my house, probably contemplating what he could get for that thing on Audiogon. My tweaked $250 player clearly outperformed it.All the other things you list are either not available at this point (I'd love a digital crossover, then feed the output to a stereo 3-way attenuator and send it off to 6 amps, but we're just not quite there yet unless you buy dedicated hardare for mucho $$$), or are a matter of convenience.
But back to the key issues that keep me from getting into a PC-based transport and beyond: As far as I undestand jitter, it is an issue for data coming off a hard drive just like off a CD - something has to know at what pace to feed it to the output - SPDIF or whatever - and that something ideally needs to be in synch with your DAC. If that cna be resolved at a clearly better performance level than current CD transport technology can do, I'm all game. The PC noise can easily be eliminated - I have CAT-5 throughout the house and probably would run a server downstairs with a noiseless laptop or custom fanless PC as a control source in the listening room. Meanwhile, I will just keep spinning CDs and enjoy the music. I don't shuffle - I listen to entire albums. When I don't sit down to listen, there is no music.
Peter
PC Audio Jitter
From what I've heard, jitter is the biggest quality bottleneck in pc audio, once the noisy environment (electrical and acoustic) has been improved. I have a Turtle Beach Fiji card ( alas - no computer that it can run in) and the data was re - clocked by the Motorola DSP chip. This removed the jitter.
Modern cards now seem to rely on the computer's CPU for all the DSP power, with no opportunity for re - clocking. I have an m - audio delta410 card too, and there doesn't look as though much DSP work could be done on board. Just one big chip for 8 outputs. The OS cannot be relied upon to service the DAC with jitter free data.
I would have thought it possible to add re - clocking to an outboard DAC though.
I have thought about this too, because I spend so much more time at my computer than I do with my CD player.
From what I've heard, jitter is the biggest quality bottleneck in pc audio, once the noisy environment (electrical and acoustic) has been improved. I have a Turtle Beach Fiji card ( alas - no computer that it can run in) and the data was re - clocked by the Motorola DSP chip. This removed the jitter.
Modern cards now seem to rely on the computer's CPU for all the DSP power, with no opportunity for re - clocking. I have an m - audio delta410 card too, and there doesn't look as though much DSP work could be done on board. Just one big chip for 8 outputs. The OS cannot be relied upon to service the DAC with jitter free data.
I would have thought it possible to add re - clocking to an outboard DAC though.
I have thought about this too, because I spend so much more time at my computer than I do with my CD player.
Software for sound improvement
Ok, so pburke is really making things tough for me. He seems to know what he's talking about and that's always a problem when you're on the other side of the argument. However, let's see if we can get the ball back into his side of the court without dropping it quite yet.
MWP linked to some promising stuff that people are doing out there.
According to pburke it is not yet possible to do software digital crossovers. Check out this link ASIOXO project. Can anyone verify this thing works? If so, can we convince pburke that he'd better get the moving truck so he can move out of his camp over to ours? MWP?
Obviously, the main issue still for many of you skeptics is jitter. Has anyone achieved and verified low jitter from your pc?
pburke, I've got one more bone to pick with you
. You diss'ed the Wadia and my point about software/digital volume control with your anecdote about how your $250 tweaked cd player trashed the big guy in a one-to-one grudge match. Ok, be honest now, is that a convincing reason to avoid digital/software volume control? I believe the reason the Wadia was "lifeless" in your system had nothing to do with the upsampling and volume control, right? More likely it had to do with the difference in how you got music out of it vs. your player or maybe it simply is just another over-hyped, over-priced, over-weight piece of junk but even so, it still points the way to lossless digital volume control. You know that this technique WILL WORK and can replace (if you want) some hardware that gets in the way of good sound.
What ya gonna say to that?
-Robert
Ok, so pburke is really making things tough for me. He seems to know what he's talking about and that's always a problem when you're on the other side of the argument. However, let's see if we can get the ball back into his side of the court without dropping it quite yet.
MWP linked to some promising stuff that people are doing out there.
According to pburke it is not yet possible to do software digital crossovers. Check out this link ASIOXO project. Can anyone verify this thing works? If so, can we convince pburke that he'd better get the moving truck so he can move out of his camp over to ours? MWP?
Obviously, the main issue still for many of you skeptics is jitter. Has anyone achieved and verified low jitter from your pc?
pburke, I've got one more bone to pick with you
. You diss'ed the Wadia and my point about software/digital volume control with your anecdote about how your $250 tweaked cd player trashed the big guy in a one-to-one grudge match. Ok, be honest now, is that a convincing reason to avoid digital/software volume control? I believe the reason the Wadia was "lifeless" in your system had nothing to do with the upsampling and volume control, right? More likely it had to do with the difference in how you got music out of it vs. your player or maybe it simply is just another over-hyped, over-priced, over-weight piece of junk but even so, it still points the way to lossless digital volume control. You know that this technique WILL WORK and can replace (if you want) some hardware that gets in the way of good sound. What ya gonna say to that
?-Robert
Re: PC music player choices
Yep, its fun, and i enjoy my music... but that was the first DAC i have ever built (even though it was called DAC3).
I havnt compared it to anything else, i would like to though.
My next one will look like:
Source: modded Revolution 7.1 soundcard for 3 optical outs
Input: 3 * DIR1703
Resampling: 3 * SRC4192
DAC: 3 * PCM4104
Output: OPA627/637 + inbuilt gainclone bridged amps
Getting parts here in Australia like DAC's is difficult and VERY expensive, so im using the best stuff i can get via TI samples.
Sounds good.
The USB interface is actually very good... works perfectly with Windows and Linux.
I never had problems with pauses.
The only problem with it is its limited to 48Khz 16bit.
You could put a metal box around the soundcard for shielding, and make up your own PSU for it (cut the normal supply lines).
Enjoyed looking through your pics and schematic! Obviously you've spent years getting to this stage and it looks great
Yep, its fun, and i enjoy my music... but that was the first DAC i have ever built (even though it was called DAC3).
I havnt compared it to anything else, i would like to though.
My next one will look like:
Source: modded Revolution 7.1 soundcard for 3 optical outs
Input: 3 * DIR1703
Resampling: 3 * SRC4192
DAC: 3 * PCM4104
Output: OPA627/637 + inbuilt gainclone bridged amps
Getting parts here in Australia like DAC's is difficult and VERY expensive, so im using the best stuff i can get via TI samples.
Sounds good.
Regarding PC fan etc noise, I've greatly improved my current office music pc with quiet Nexus PSU, CPU cooler and chassis fan, removed the video card fan and mod'd the case with simple sound deadening. Could and will go much further until it's a non-issue. Next step is a better case and then a simple muffle cover to go over the whole case. And I'm moving my main Linux workstation out of the room using a CAT-5 cable KVM extender (1st try didn't work though using IOGEAR GCE700
Regarding isolation between pc and dac, I've just received a few transformers from Mini-Circuits (T4-6T) and intend to use one for s/pdif input. I'm assuming most people would vote against toslink and I've heard that usb might have interruptions.
The USB interface is actually very good... works perfectly with Windows and Linux.
I never had problems with pauses.
The only problem with it is its limited to 48Khz 16bit.
You could put a metal box around the soundcard for shielding, and make up your own PSU for it (cut the normal supply lines).
Re: Software for sound improvement
Well its easy to say pburke is plain wrong about that one.... because im doing it now as i type.
Im using BruteFIR (VERY nice software, and great support from Anders) to xover high & low for my fronts and low for my sub.
Im using 2048 tap (3 of them) FIR filters i designed using the filter toolbox in matlab.
BruteFIR chewing on these 3 filters uses ~10% of my CPUs time (AthlonXP 2200+).
Who said PC's couldnt do big FFT's?
I get flat freq and phase response, and very minimal audio delay from the source (i watch movies, no problems)... cant ask for better than that.
My setup isnt brilliant at the moment, due to using the analog out's on the soundcard.
That will be fixed when i get my DAC built.
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/brutefir.html
RFScheer said:
Well its easy to say pburke is plain wrong about that one.... because im doing it now as i type.
Im using BruteFIR (VERY nice software, and great support from Anders) to xover high & low for my fronts and low for my sub.
Im using 2048 tap (3 of them) FIR filters i designed using the filter toolbox in matlab.
BruteFIR chewing on these 3 filters uses ~10% of my CPUs time (AthlonXP 2200+).
Who said PC's couldnt do big FFT's?
I get flat freq and phase response, and very minimal audio delay from the source (i watch movies, no problems)... cant ask for better than that.
My setup isnt brilliant at the moment, due to using the analog out's on the soundcard.
That will be fixed when i get my DAC built.
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/brutefir.html
DING! Round 1 is over. Round 2 coming up.
And the PC player camp is ahead 1-0. Software dsp crossovers are a big win for their team
!!!
Now, how about this concept of software dsp volume control? Anyone doing that or believe it's a worthy topic?
The PC camp is actively recruiting someone (anyone) with massive (any) amounts of experience and/or intelligence (or not) who will submit under oath valid measurements or experiments (or perhaps subjective impressions) having to do with jitter from optimized pc soundcards.
-Robert
And the PC player camp is ahead 1-0. Software dsp crossovers are a big win for their team
!!!Now, how about this concept of software dsp volume control? Anyone doing that or believe it's a worthy topic?
The PC camp is actively recruiting someone (anyone) with massive (any) amounts of experience and/or intelligence (or not) who will submit under oath valid measurements or experiments (or perhaps subjective impressions) having to do with jitter from optimized pc soundcards.
-Robert
Re: Software for sound improvement
anything is possible if you throw enough geek hours and resources at it. I actually am in this hobby because I enjoy the music. The gear I use is secondary. That Brutefir stuff was discussed before - I recall they are taking serious shortcuts somewhere (search the forum), but even if it works and performs as advertised, I doubt your average joe is going to figure out how to set this up. I for sure have better things to do with my time. Give me a package where I can push a few sliders and listen. Command line is just so not-cool
About the Wadia 301 - I have no idea why it sounded so anemic - whatever it was, I'd assume a player at that price point should have it all. I doubt the Wadia mechanism is bad, and the DAC ought to be better than what they slap into a Cambridge Audio D500 - right? So that leaves all their software gizmos to wonder about. Unless the player just has no "synergy" with my power amps (I love this excuse).
when it comes right down to it - I am currently more interested in a nice Linn turntable than a PC-based playback system. The only way I'll get into that is if it does EVERYTHING - that is sound better than a CD player, has a perfect active crossover and room correction package that's easy to use, has low jitter digital outs to all channels (that would be 6 SPDIF or toslink outs, is dead silent (no fans), and costs less than a high-end CD player.
Gizmos and "on screen visualizion graphics" don't attract me - it has to sound great and do stuff I cannot do right now without costing me an eternity to figure out and set up. I like DIY, but I do have a life, and this project sounds more like a major research project to me. Again, the convenience factors don't matter at all to me - CDs are convenient enough, and I don't even mind LPs; there's still a few hundred of those in my basement.
I'll remain on the fence until I see a tool that's about as easy to use as EAC, can buy or build hardware for a reasonable cost, and start doing things that require a TACT or some other fancy system right now.
Peter
RFScheer said:According to pburke it is not yet possible to do software digital crossovers. Check out this link ASIOXO project. Can anyone verify this thing works? If so, can we convince pburke that he'd better get the moving truck so he can move out of his camp over to ours? MWP?
pburke, I've got one more bone to pick with you
-Robert
anything is possible if you throw enough geek hours and resources at it. I actually am in this hobby because I enjoy the music. The gear I use is secondary. That Brutefir stuff was discussed before - I recall they are taking serious shortcuts somewhere (search the forum), but even if it works and performs as advertised, I doubt your average joe is going to figure out how to set this up. I for sure have better things to do with my time. Give me a package where I can push a few sliders and listen. Command line is just so not-cool
About the Wadia 301 - I have no idea why it sounded so anemic - whatever it was, I'd assume a player at that price point should have it all. I doubt the Wadia mechanism is bad, and the DAC ought to be better than what they slap into a Cambridge Audio D500 - right? So that leaves all their software gizmos to wonder about. Unless the player just has no "synergy" with my power amps (I love this excuse).
when it comes right down to it - I am currently more interested in a nice Linn turntable than a PC-based playback system. The only way I'll get into that is if it does EVERYTHING - that is sound better than a CD player, has a perfect active crossover and room correction package that's easy to use, has low jitter digital outs to all channels (that would be 6 SPDIF or toslink outs, is dead silent (no fans), and costs less than a high-end CD player.
Gizmos and "on screen visualizion graphics" don't attract me - it has to sound great and do stuff I cannot do right now without costing me an eternity to figure out and set up. I like DIY, but I do have a life, and this project sounds more like a major research project to me. Again, the convenience factors don't matter at all to me - CDs are convenient enough, and I don't even mind LPs; there's still a few hundred of those in my basement.
I'll remain on the fence until I see a tool that's about as easy to use as EAC, can buy or build hardware for a reasonable cost, and start doing things that require a TACT or some other fancy system right now.
Peter
This is all very nice and all that but I have not yet read anything that cannot be done without the overhead of a pc and its attendant clutter. I see the advantages offered by a pc for distributed sound but for a single point dedicated setup there is nothing you can do on a pc that can only be done on a pc. Should I decide to part company with my bog standard silver disk spinner, it will be for a cdrom or harddisk based system with NO pc.
RFScheer started this thread in a tone not dissimilar to a Victorian missionary off to the heart of darkness and this savage, for one, refuses to be converted.
ray.
RFScheer started this thread in a tone not dissimilar to a Victorian missionary off to the heart of darkness and this savage, for one, refuses to be converted.
ray.
The Natives ARE NOT Rallying to the Cause
Episode 2 of the PC music player chronicles is having a bit of trouble getting started. There appears to be a lack of diy'ers in the zone.
Imagine calling this topic "too geeky" (ok so that's not the exact quote). Hello-o-o-o
According to one particularly cynical native (he was beaten as a child), my little band of proselytizers has strayed into the vast uncharted jungle with our god-given mission to convert the entirety of savages to our holy-geekyness and they are resisting. Actually, resistance may be too energetic a term to use.
Where are those Heathkits when you need em? The natives used to love those and would spend endless hours inserting polished lead 1 into alcohol cleaned hole A.
Cut.
Episode 2 will return in a moment with a new 'adventure' theme. Stay tuned.
-Robert
Episode 2 of the PC music player chronicles is having a bit of trouble getting started. There appears to be a lack of diy'ers in the zone.
Imagine calling this topic "too geeky" (ok so that's not the exact quote). Hello-o-o-o
According to one particularly cynical native (he was beaten as a child), my little band of proselytizers has strayed into the vast uncharted jungle with our god-given mission to convert the entirety of savages to our holy-geekyness and they are resisting. Actually, resistance may be too energetic a term to use.
Where are those Heathkits when you need em? The natives used to love those and would spend endless hours inserting polished lead 1 into alcohol cleaned hole A.
Cut.
Episode 2 will return in a moment with a new 'adventure' theme. Stay tuned.
-Robert
Episode 2
Oh one more thing before Episode 2 get's rolling.
I want to make clear that it is NOT I who am trying to convince YOU of anything. It is YOU who should be convincing ME that you are making the right choices with your diy resources.
That is if there are any diy'ers in the zone
.
-Robert
Oh one more thing before Episode 2 get's rolling.
I want to make clear that it is NOT I who am trying to convince YOU of anything. It is YOU who should be convincing ME that you are making the right choices with your diy resources.
That is if there are any diy'ers in the zone
.-Robert
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