Actually, some CD reading/burning programs does have
something called jitter correction. For instance, WinOnCD
has such an option, but adds that it is usually not necessary
with modern drives. Probably some older drives are so bad that
the jitter in the digital clock in the drive causes reading/writing
problems, or it cannot compensate for such jitter on a disc
while reading. Note however, that this is jitter in the digital
data which can result in corruption of the digital data. However.
it has no relationship to what we usually refer to as jitter in
audio, ie. jitter in the clock used for AD and DA conversion.
If it makes a difference, it is probably because of an old or bad
CD-drive/burner.
something called jitter correction. For instance, WinOnCD
has such an option, but adds that it is usually not necessary
with modern drives. Probably some older drives are so bad that
the jitter in the digital clock in the drive causes reading/writing
problems, or it cannot compensate for such jitter on a disc
while reading. Note however, that this is jitter in the digital
data which can result in corruption of the digital data. However.
it has no relationship to what we usually refer to as jitter in
audio, ie. jitter in the clock used for AD and DA conversion.
If it makes a difference, it is probably because of an old or bad
CD-drive/burner.
sikkek said:
Well, first of all we (4 persons) made many many listening tests, sometimes 2-3 persons do not even know what the test is about but IT IS CLEARLY AUDIBLE - FOR ALL PERSONS. Just for the info we use a stereo system worth € 56.000,- (preamp, 2 monoblocks, speakers & cables) for the listening tests.
You all sit on your ***** and shout: No it's not possible, no because....blah blah blah.
What's the problem? I'm talking here about audible differences everybody can hear....
"Nooooo it is not possible...."
"No CD sounds better than SACD"
"No the earth is flat"
When you don't believe it why don't you just try out for yourself?
What's the problem? I'm talking here about audible differences everybody can hear....
"Nooooo it is not possible...."
"No CD sounds better than SACD"
"No the earth is flat"
When you don't believe it why don't you just try out for yourself?
BritishSpy said:
What software do you use then for ripping and burning? Have
you checked if you get consistent data if reading the same
tracks several times? Have tried ripping with EAC and compared?
If you use EAC and get OK readings then jitter correction shouldn't
make any difference for reading the CDs. Maybe it can still do
something when burning, I don't know.
BritishSpy said:
BritishSpy said:
With this you disqualified yourself. Make yourself familar with normal CD-ripping before coming here
basing your claims on incorrect grabbing of the data. If you can hear the difference of rippings
there is something elementary faulty. You´d better spent 50$ of your system for a better PC-Drive!
There is even an AccurateRip database to verify checksums of your copied songs worldwide.
Now you tell you have different "audible" results on ripping!? What is worth the rest of your results?
This time really no more comments!
A somewhat more serious discussion on the subject is taking place here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/show.php/showtopic/17118/st/0
(HydrogenAudio.org)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/show.php/showtopic/17118/st/0
(HydrogenAudio.org)
One of the main advantages of the newer formats may be the decreased time-smear due to the grater freedom (regarding cutoff frequency and steepness) in the design of the anti-aliasing filters.
This would also show why upsampling works.
BTW: I have heard the difference between SACD and CD and it IS audible.
Regards Charles
This would also show why upsampling works.
BTW: I have heard the difference between SACD and CD and it IS audible.
Regards Charles
phase_accurate said:
The most remarkable thing is that 24bit formats have a different rhythm approach, espicially DVD-A sounds like a €30.000,- analog turntable. All audiophiles know how CD fails miserably in the Rhythm area. BTW, the CD copies I made with the Apogee UV22-HR renderer sounds also more correct in the foot-steppin category.
I wish more people understood what Christer is saying here - it would reduce the bandwith need on hifi forums by a factor 2.
But let's take it again (as Christer says ..) copying digital data from one media to an other does not introduce jitter - only (maybe) data corruption or loss. Jitter is introduced in the D/A process FULL STOP
(It may of cource also be introduced in the A/D process buts thats not dicussed here)
You can upsample and downsample as much You want but never get rid of anything else than maybe subcodes from the original CD.
Evereything else experianced as an "improvment" is probably a degradation that is experianced as an improvemt due to deficiencies in the reproduction system.
/
But let's take it again (as Christer says ..) copying digital data from one media to an other does not introduce jitter - only (maybe) data corruption or loss. Jitter is introduced in the D/A process FULL STOP
(It may of cource also be introduced in the A/D process buts thats not dicussed here)
You can upsample and downsample as much You want but never get rid of anything else than maybe subcodes from the original CD.
Evereything else experianced as an "improvment" is probably a degradation that is experianced as an improvemt due to deficiencies in the reproduction system.
/
Christer said:
About JITTER:
"Please note that I perform all my listening tests at Digital Domain through the same D/A converter, and that converter is preceded by an extremely powerful jitter-reduction device. Surprisingly, I can still hear some variation in source quality, depending on whether I am listening to hard disk, CDR, 20-bit tape, or DAT. The ear is an incredibly powerful "jitter detector"!
But the closer you look at the phenomenon of jitter, the more you realize that even minute amounts of jitter are audible, even through the FIFO (First in, First Out) buffer built into every CD player.
David Smith (of Sony Music) was the first to point out to me that power supply design is very important to jitter in a CD player, a CD recorder, or a glass mastering machine. Although the FIFO is supposed to eliminate all the jitter coming in, it doesn't seem to be doing an adequate job. One theory put forth by David is that the crystal oscillator at the output of the FIFO is powered by the same power supply that powers the input of the FIFO. Thus, the variations in loading at the input to the FIFO are microcosmically transmitted to the output of the FIFO through the power supply. Considering the minute amounts of jitter that are detectable by the ear, it is very difficult to design a power supply/grounding system that effectively blocks jitter from critical components. Crystal oscillators and phase locked loops should be powered from independent supplies, perhaps even battery supplies. A lot of research is left to be done; one of the difficulties is finding measurement instruments capable of quantifying very low amounts of jitter. Until we are able to correlate jitter measurements against audibility, the ear remains the final judge. Yet another obstacle to good "anti-jitter" engineering design is engineers who don't (or won't) listen. The proof is there before your ears!
David Smith also discovered that inserting a reclocking device during glass mastering definitely improves the sound of the CD pressing. Correlary question: If you use a good reclocking device on the final transfer to Glass Master, does this cancel out any jitter of previous source or source(s) that were used in the pre-production of the 1630? Answer: We're not sure yet!
Listening tests
I have participated in a number of blind (and double-blind) listening tests that clearly indicate that a CD which is pressed from a "jittery" source sounds worse than one made from a less jittery source? In one test, a CD plant pressed a number of test CDs, simply marked "A" or "B". No one outside of the plant knew which was "A" and which "B". All listeners preferred the pressing marked "A", as closer to the master, and sonically superior to "B". Not to prolong the suspense, disc "A" was glass mastered from PCM-1630, disc "B" from a CDR."
DD 10/28/02 Florida
"Please note that I perform all my listening tests at Digital Domain through the same D/A converter, and that converter is preceded by an extremely powerful jitter-reduction device. Surprisingly, I can still hear some variation in source quality, depending on whether I am listening to hard disk, CDR, 20-bit tape, or DAT. The ear is an incredibly powerful "jitter detector"!
But the closer you look at the phenomenon of jitter, the more you realize that even minute amounts of jitter are audible, even through the FIFO (First in, First Out) buffer built into every CD player.
David Smith (of Sony Music) was the first to point out to me that power supply design is very important to jitter in a CD player, a CD recorder, or a glass mastering machine. Although the FIFO is supposed to eliminate all the jitter coming in, it doesn't seem to be doing an adequate job. One theory put forth by David is that the crystal oscillator at the output of the FIFO is powered by the same power supply that powers the input of the FIFO. Thus, the variations in loading at the input to the FIFO are microcosmically transmitted to the output of the FIFO through the power supply. Considering the minute amounts of jitter that are detectable by the ear, it is very difficult to design a power supply/grounding system that effectively blocks jitter from critical components. Crystal oscillators and phase locked loops should be powered from independent supplies, perhaps even battery supplies. A lot of research is left to be done; one of the difficulties is finding measurement instruments capable of quantifying very low amounts of jitter. Until we are able to correlate jitter measurements against audibility, the ear remains the final judge. Yet another obstacle to good "anti-jitter" engineering design is engineers who don't (or won't) listen. The proof is there before your ears!
David Smith also discovered that inserting a reclocking device during glass mastering definitely improves the sound of the CD pressing. Correlary question: If you use a good reclocking device on the final transfer to Glass Master, does this cancel out any jitter of previous source or source(s) that were used in the pre-production of the 1630? Answer: We're not sure yet!
Listening tests
I have participated in a number of blind (and double-blind) listening tests that clearly indicate that a CD which is pressed from a "jittery" source sounds worse than one made from a less jittery source? In one test, a CD plant pressed a number of test CDs, simply marked "A" or "B". No one outside of the plant knew which was "A" and which "B". All listeners preferred the pressing marked "A", as closer to the master, and sonically superior to "B". Not to prolong the suspense, disc "A" was glass mastered from PCM-1630, disc "B" from a CDR."
DD 10/28/02 Florida
About Apogee UV22-HR:
"MasterTools features Apogee's UV22, the word-length reduction system most favored by mastering engineers -- over eight out of ten hit records in the US are mastered with the system -- which takes a high-resolution signal, such as a 24-bit recording, and flawlessly translates it into the 16-bit signal required for DAT, CD and other mastering applications. The noise floor remains at the theoretical 16-bit level yet, as with an analog recording, you can hear additional detail "through" the noise floor. MasterTools UV22 includes a wealth of additional tools for mastering, including "over" protection and logging against timecode, a unique 3D historical metering system, and individual channel mutes, phase and stereo reverse."
Steinberg PRESS RELEASE
UV22HR, the basics:
* The UV22HR algorithm essentially modulates the data from the least significant bits of a signal to the 16-bit signal.
* UV22HR adds an inaudible high-frequency ‘bias’ to the digital bit stream, placing a ‘clump’ of energy at around 22 kHz (above the upper limit of human hearing)
* UV22HR provides the benefits of normal dither (eliminatingquantization distortion and smoothing out the signal) without adding to the effective noise floor.
* UV22HR allows the listener to hear coherent audio signals several dB below the 16-bit noise "floor" – just like analog!
* A recent survey indicates that 8out of 10 of the major mastering studios in the U.S. used UV22HR on at least 80% of their projects.
"MasterTools features Apogee's UV22, the word-length reduction system most favored by mastering engineers -- over eight out of ten hit records in the US are mastered with the system -- which takes a high-resolution signal, such as a 24-bit recording, and flawlessly translates it into the 16-bit signal required for DAT, CD and other mastering applications. The noise floor remains at the theoretical 16-bit level yet, as with an analog recording, you can hear additional detail "through" the noise floor. MasterTools UV22 includes a wealth of additional tools for mastering, including "over" protection and logging against timecode, a unique 3D historical metering system, and individual channel mutes, phase and stereo reverse."
Steinberg PRESS RELEASE
UV22HR, the basics:
* The UV22HR algorithm essentially modulates the data from the least significant bits of a signal to the 16-bit signal.
* UV22HR adds an inaudible high-frequency ‘bias’ to the digital bit stream, placing a ‘clump’ of energy at around 22 kHz (above the upper limit of human hearing)
* UV22HR provides the benefits of normal dither (eliminatingquantization distortion and smoothing out the signal) without adding to the effective noise floor.
* UV22HR allows the listener to hear coherent audio signals several dB below the 16-bit noise "floor" – just like analog!
* A recent survey indicates that 8out of 10 of the major mastering studios in the U.S. used UV22HR on at least 80% of their projects.
TNT said:
You make a full stop, OK! Other people look further....
SONY fights the jitter in a digital-transfer chain, you think they are all stupid and you both Swedes Christer & TNT are smart? O.K. you both are smart too but please read more about jitter problems in the professional league.
BritishSpy,
please distinguish between jitter in a device that contains a
DA (or AD) converter and devices that work entirely with digital
data, such as your PC. Clock jitter in a purely digital system can
only result in bit errors if bad enough. A bit is either zero or one,
and if the jitter is bad enough a bit may get the wrong value.
Clearly we have no serious problem with that on hard disks
since we would have frequent program crashes if data was
corrupted beyond what can be detected/recovered by the
built-in error checking/correction. CD drives may have more
problems, but if you use EAC for ripping you will know if the
data you read is corrupted or not. Digital data can only be wrong
or right, there are no shades in between. If your CD burner is
bad and introduces excessive jitter in the data your CDP may
suffer from read errors beyond what is recoverable.
For a device containing both purely digital circuitry and DA circuitry
there might probably be potential interaction between clocks
and power supplies, affecting the DA conversion, but that is a
somewhat different issue. That is a problem with the CDP, not
with the software, hard disk etc you use on your computer.
(Actually, to be more precise, there is a phenomenon called
meta-stability, which may arise in asynchronous digital
systems, or badly designed synchronous ones, where a bit
may occasionally have an undefined value. however, such a
bit will anyway be interpreted as either a one or a zero by
the following circuitry, so we still end up with well defined
data that is either right or wrong.)
please distinguish between jitter in a device that contains a
DA (or AD) converter and devices that work entirely with digital
data, such as your PC. Clock jitter in a purely digital system can
only result in bit errors if bad enough. A bit is either zero or one,
and if the jitter is bad enough a bit may get the wrong value.
Clearly we have no serious problem with that on hard disks
since we would have frequent program crashes if data was
corrupted beyond what can be detected/recovered by the
built-in error checking/correction. CD drives may have more
problems, but if you use EAC for ripping you will know if the
data you read is corrupted or not. Digital data can only be wrong
or right, there are no shades in between. If your CD burner is
bad and introduces excessive jitter in the data your CDP may
suffer from read errors beyond what is recoverable.
For a device containing both purely digital circuitry and DA circuitry
there might probably be potential interaction between clocks
and power supplies, affecting the DA conversion, but that is a
somewhat different issue. That is a problem with the CDP, not
with the software, hard disk etc you use on your computer.
(Actually, to be more precise, there is a phenomenon called
meta-stability, which may arise in asynchronous digital
systems, or badly designed synchronous ones, where a bit
may occasionally have an undefined value. however, such a
bit will anyway be interpreted as either a one or a zero by
the following circuitry, so we still end up with well defined
data that is either right or wrong.)
"Attention CD Plants--a New Solution to the Jitter Problem from Sony
In response to pressure from its musical clients, and recognizing that jitter really is a problem, Sony Corporation has decided to improve on the quality of glass mastering. The result is a new system called (appropriately) The Ultimate Cutter. The system can be retrofitted to any CD plant's Glass Mastering system for approximately $100,000. The Ultimate Cutter contains 2 gigabytes of flash RAM, and a very stable clock. It is designed to eliminate the multiple interfering clocks and mechanical irregularities of traditional systems using 1630, Exabyte, or CD ROM sources. First the data is transferred to the cutter's RAM from the CD Master; then all interfering sources may be shut down, and a glass master cut with the stable clock directly from RAM. This system is currently under test, and I look forward to hearing the sonic results."
Hey, wake up NOBODY is talking about DA or AD converters here - PURE DIGITAL TRANSFER, please read carefully
In response to pressure from its musical clients, and recognizing that jitter really is a problem, Sony Corporation has decided to improve on the quality of glass mastering. The result is a new system called (appropriately) The Ultimate Cutter. The system can be retrofitted to any CD plant's Glass Mastering system for approximately $100,000. The Ultimate Cutter contains 2 gigabytes of flash RAM, and a very stable clock. It is designed to eliminate the multiple interfering clocks and mechanical irregularities of traditional systems using 1630, Exabyte, or CD ROM sources. First the data is transferred to the cutter's RAM from the CD Master; then all interfering sources may be shut down, and a glass master cut with the stable clock directly from RAM. This system is currently under test, and I look forward to hearing the sonic results."
Hey, wake up NOBODY is talking about DA or AD converters here - PURE DIGITAL TRANSFER, please read carefully
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