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Old 26th March 2004, 03:57 PM   #1
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Default The ultimate TDA1543 DAC layout??

I was working recently on a compact layout for TDA1543 DAC and I came with this configuration. To simplify I2S connection TDA chip supposed to be on a bottom layer. I was almost completely satisfied with this solution, when suddenly an idea struck my head

I got reminded about all those fancy ground plane talk, minimizing inductance and capacitance, and of course 3D layout techniques used in Connosseur preamps.

So I decided to break the envelope of 2 dimentional assembly plane and get more adventurous.
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Old 26th March 2004, 03:59 PM   #2
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So here's what I came with. IMO, this is the best TDA1543 DAC I've built so far.
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Old 26th March 2004, 04:04 PM   #3
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I started with attaching copper foil to the top of CS8412 chip (thinner grade from Alpha core inductors using double sided adhesive tape). I attached later TDA1543 chip on top with BCK an FSYNK lines directly aligned on both chips. This leave the DATA line only slightly longer , but still as short as it gets.

All the regualtors (AN800x) ae attached directly to chip pins, their ground pins directly to copper plane. All bypass electrolytics are attache directly to chip pins (BG N 4.7 mostly)

The other chip visible in a pic is the input buffer (from Kusunoki DAC3). I used Vishay S102 to terminate the input.
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Old 26th March 2004, 04:06 PM   #4
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Very nice, you're a true artist .

what are those transistors next to the recieverchip powersupply-pins?

hmm while typing this reply you posted the explaination. the regulators are those transistor looking things.
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Old 26th March 2004, 04:06 PM   #5
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All connections are as short as possible. I decided to use 12V battery to power the whole thing with 4 separate regulators. I will later try 2 batteries (separate for DAC and receiver). The sound is really good and comparing to AC power it seems to be more realxed and smooth, but the difference is not that big. Initially I had 2200/16 BG cap to prefilter DAC regualtor, but it seems that the sound is better with out that cap.
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Old 26th March 2004, 04:12 PM   #6
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In some other thread, there was a discussion about ceramic bypass caps. Well, that DAC was initially built without them, as I wanted to check out their influence. Comparing what I remembered from the sound of my other DACs (having those caps) the sound seemed to be dry and not liquid enough, lacking a bit of sparkle. After adding ceramic bypasses, it improved. I don't know what other guys are using, but the caps I favour are 15n X7R 0612 and 330n X7R 0612 from DK. They are pretty expensive and have soldering tabs on longer side, being even more suitable for bypass purposes. I solder tham directly to the chip pins, stack on each other, the smaller one being closer to the chip.

Here's the link to excellent article by Pete Goudreu discussing triplets bypassing http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain
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Old 26th March 2004, 04:34 PM   #7
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Here's a pic showing my deditaction in installing ceramic caps on regulators feed lines (soldered directly to copper plane and wire)
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Old 26th March 2004, 04:46 PM   #8
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Some people complain about CS8412 and spdif interface, yet this DAC, when used with CD Pro2 connected with Kimber Iluminations D-60, BNC termianted cable, sounds much better than my modified battery driven Marantz CD-94 (I2S direct) with non oversampling mod, Tent clock, synchronous reclocking and active, discreet output stage. I will be modifying Marantz again (soon)

The Marantz still posses traces of digital haze, while this setup is free from any digital artifacts.
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Old 26th March 2004, 05:22 PM   #9
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As always, Peter, a true piece of art
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Old 26th March 2004, 05:34 PM   #10
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Very,very good Peter!

I like it a lot!
Do you have any drawn schematics? Maybe I will try TDA1543 again.
Is the output stage and I-V passive (I think it is)?

Have you compared CD 94 and CD-PRO as a transport only.
CD 94 is equipped with CDM 1.I guess it should be better than CD-PRO.


Bartek
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Old 26th March 2004, 05:44 PM   #11
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CD Pro is better than Marantz as a transport, but I imagine there other things (beside transport) influencing performance (PS for instance, which is not modified in Marantz.

Here's the schematic. There is also a raw PS, I'm not showing here, but it is mostly based on Kusunoki DAC1 with extensive CLCRC filtering. If run from batteries it gets much simpler and some cap maybe omitted. I noticed that less capacitance makes things sound better. I didn't use 22R resistors on I2S as those connections were very short in my layout. On ea. chip supply pins are 15n and 330n ceramic SMD caps. All bypass caps are BG N type (they are simply the best in this application. I/V and ref resistors are Rikens (get the closest available values). If built as shown, this DAC presents tremendous value (performance wise).

PS: I noticed that in Kusunoki schematic power to pin 24 is taken from digital supply. Any particualr reason and importance of that?
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Old 26th March 2004, 05:47 PM   #12
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Hi Peter
I love your techno sculpture
As I wish to produce a small unit for my portable, I have been
thinking along these lines myself..
I have not started doing any making as yet, just planning.
And of course worrying about scopes!

Here is a pic of a couple of Buffer[stack] attack modules I made.
[adapter to convert HA 5002s to BUF634 pin-outs.]



Cheers

Setmenu
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Old 26th March 2004, 05:51 PM   #13
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Why people seem to be preocupied with heatsinking those chips? If you use a copper foil ground plane and glue the cheap (upside down) to it, you will achieve both heatsinking and additionally, very good groundplane with short connections for any bypassing purposes.
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Old 26th March 2004, 05:54 PM   #14
Bricolo is offline Bricolo  France
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Why people seem to be preocupied with heatsinking those chips? If you use a copper foil ground plane and glue the cheap (upside down) to it, you will achieve both heatsinking and additionally, very good groundplane with short connections for any bypassing purposes.

Is there any problem in soldering things on the copper foil, when it's already placed on the chip?
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Old 26th March 2004, 06:01 PM   #15
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Thanks a lot Peter for schem.

Are you omiting all of those regulators with batteries?
What voltages of batteries are you using?

Bartek
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Old 26th March 2004, 06:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bricolo



Is there any problem in soldering things on the copper foil, when it's already placed on the chip?
The only problem is with adhesive tape. When regular double sided tape is used, it melts. I'm using here the thick, white stuff, that is used to attach security devices (in stores ).


Quote:
Originally posted by zygibajt
Thanks a lot Peter for schem.

Are you omiting all of those regulators with batteries?
What voltages of batteries are you using?

Bartek
You need the regualtors as the battery is 12V and PS to DAC is 8V and other chips are powerd by 5V. Those Panasonic TO-92 reg. are especially good and I prefer them to LM337 and even Elso's discreet regualtor
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Old 26th March 2004, 07:30 PM   #17
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Hi Peter
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Why people seem to be preocupied with heatsinking those chips? If you use a copper foil ground plane and glue the cheap (upside down) to it, you will achieve both heatsinking and additionally, very good groundplane with short connections for any bypassing purposes.
Sorry they offend!
I only posted them for fun, I thought they looked quite statuesque
The approach you suggest would have been impossible to implement in the application they were intended for.

I had no intention of spoiling your thread
As the image has no relevance here.
But I guess my enthusiasm got the better of me

Please feel free to have it deleted.


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Old 26th March 2004, 07:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by setmenu


Please feel free to have it deleted.
It is me who should be sorry that you felt that way. They don't offend at all and as they say a picture is worth a thousnad words

I just don't understand why people are concerned with heatsinking those chips and going to such extends. They don't run that hot
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Old 26th March 2004, 08:52 PM   #19
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CC the ceramic bypass, what about silver mica or glass ?
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Old 26th March 2004, 09:41 PM   #20
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I've noticed that silver mica caps are popular with German audiophiles. I never really tried them. Here's what Jonathan Carr says about them
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...664#post262664
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Old 26th March 2004, 10:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
I favour are 15n X7R 0612 and 330n X7R 0612 from DK.
Please give me some more information about these very useful caps (web address, part number, full brand name or place you buy from would be very useful)

Petter
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Old 26th March 2004, 10:53 PM   #22
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I try to like it Peter but I am stuck in a pcb's-look-better period at the moment ( as always ). Never liked hardwiring and I probably won't ever like it except for prototyping. Ever returning thing is the long time from schematic to board. Hard to admit but I see the PCB as an esthetic feature although it shouldn't be IMO. Also I have a firm belief that pcb's are more reliable as regular experiments with hardwiring reveiled.

Regarding the bypassing of caps. Were the BG's you bypassed burnt in ? I bypassed with 220 nF X7R ( Kemet ) and I wasn't impressed.
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Old 26th March 2004, 11:06 PM   #23
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Yes, they were burned in for at least a month of constant use. I took them from the other DAC.

Digikey.com part#:
PCC2173CT
PCC2185CT

Regarding PCB vs. p2p, I agree that pcb provides more convenience and better look and I don't think that wiring p2p has such tremendous advantage as some people try to portray.

But I also believe that going into 3D layout has its advantages and in many cases simplifies connection and make them much shorter (and actually "looking better"). That's why I will continue using combination of PCBs and 3D layout.

My thanks to Jonathan Carr for inspiration

PS: Especially in case of CS8412 and TDA1543 connecting I2S lines is not that simply and placing the DAC on top of receiver makes things much easier. And the length of that lines is important, I presume. Same goes for shared and compact ground plane.
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Old 26th March 2004, 11:16 PM   #24
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Quote:
PS: Especially in case of CS8412 and TDA1543 connecting I2S lines is not that simply and placing the DAC on top of receiver makes things much easier. And the length of that lines is important, I presume. Same goes for shared and compact ground plane.
Sorry, no groundplane. Some parts are under the board in case you think it is underpopulated. This was my very first prototype PCB of a TDA1543 DAC as discussed on the Amp board. I2S lines are very short. I am 15 versions further ( not all actually built ! ) in time but still not totally satisfied with the final version. That one features some 3D as well ( you'll need the special 3D glasses however ).
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Old 26th March 2004, 11:24 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Here's what Jonathan Carr says about them[/url]
There are different kinds of silver mica.

The red-brown ones that come in drop form "dipped" are mostly magnetic and tolerance is 5%.

Some german brand is not magnetic and 1% or even 0,5%.

I have a huge collection but did not compare them to other stuff yet. So many things to do...

I recently observed one well known former member of this forum buying a pair on ebay for a high price.
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