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Old 31st March 2002, 05:34 PM   #1
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Default DVI out on a DVD Player

Folks:

Are there any DVD players that have a DVI OUT on them? I've been asking around and haven't been able to find any anywhere.

The DVI is a direct digital out for flat panel / LCD monitors, but my video projector has a DVI in. Presently, the only way to use that is to go from my PC (DVI out) to DVI in.

Note: I know there are simple DVI to Analog RBG ('component video') adapaters, but I'd prefer to stay digital to digital. (this I'm posting this in the 'digital' forum <G>).

Thanks,
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Old 31st March 2002, 07:57 PM   #2
tiroth is offline tiroth  United States
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I believe any unencrypted digital video out is a violation of DVD consortium rules, so it is unlikely that you will find a stock player with DVI out. I have heard of people paying for SDI-out upgrades, though, so there may be something like that out there for DVI.

Or, you could shell out another ~$400 for an SDI PCI board, $100 or so for a good graphics card, and make a really nice computer-based deinterlacer.
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Old 31st March 2002, 09:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
I believe any unencrypted digital video out is a violation of DVD consortium rules
Damn, hadn't thought of that. That's just bizarre. Because of 'the rules' I have to go with a lower quality viewing.

So the only way to avoid a D/A and A/D step is to use a PC to display all DVD's.

Let's burn the consortium.
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Old 3rd April 2002, 03:14 PM   #4
alvaius is offline alvaius  Canada
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Give it 6 months or so. There is actually an encryption standard developed for DVI for just such an application.
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Old 7th April 2002, 10:25 AM   #5
hifiZen is offline hifiZen  Canada
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At this time, there are no stand-alone DVD players with DVI output, and it is unlikely that you will see very many in the near future.

The reason is mostly cost-related. The DVD player market is highly competetive, and manufacturers will not be willing to add a feature that will see little to no use with a consumer product unless it has some significant marketing potential (eg progressive scan). Presently, the DVI interface is used almost exclusively for computer monitors, and given how easy and inexpensive it is to add a DVD drive to a computer, i rather doubt that anyone will consider it worthwhile to add such an interface to a DVD player. A secondary issue of concern of course is copy protection, shich is definitely a DVD consortium regulation (even analog interfaces are supposed to apply macrovision for copy protected material)... although the DVI interface does have an encryption standard. These are the same reasons you will very rarely see even an analog RGB computer-style interface on standalone DVD players. If there's one place where you might find what you're looking for, it'll be the asian market. This is the only place I've heard of dvd players being sold with analog rgb outputs, save perhaps for a few very rare north american models.

I can tell you that I haven't heard about any plans from DVD chipset makers to introduce DVI output support, except for PC applications. So, don't hold your breath. I think it far more likely that we'll see firewire becoming the standard digital video interface for consumer electronics. Whichever way it goes, affordable standalone players will probably not appear until television sets which support the digital interface start showing up in numbers anyway.

If you really want that DVI interface for your projector, you'll have to tap into a CCIR-656 data bus inside a commerical player (but these are not in RGB, rather YCrCb). At least you could pass the digital video data to your own circuitry. Unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with the DVI interface beyond a basic level of understanding, so I can't give you much advice on handling the colour space conversion and interfacing to DVI. It'd be one heck of a lot of work anyway...

I think your best bet is to either stick with your PC (generally poor deinterlacing performance), or buy a decent progressive scan DVD player and use the component analog outputs. Samsung is about to put it's new progressive scan players on the market, which will contain my company's new ZiVA-5 chip... it does an excellent job of deinterlacing for DVDs with encoding problems (you'd be surprised how many titles aren't properly authored), and equals or exceeds the performance of the much-touted Sage/Faroudja FLI2200 deinterlacer for the vast majority of DVD material.

I think the high performance of the newest generation deinterlacers outweighs the disadvantage of one more AD/DA cycle... most modern HD and progressive scan TVs do an AD/DA conversion cycle of their own anyway.

Anyhow, if you have any questions i might be able answer for you, just let me know...
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Old 7th April 2002, 02:49 PM   #6
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I think that TagMaclarens two DVD players are going to get DVI output cards in the near future. In asia I have seen players having DV output.
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Old 7th April 2002, 04:14 PM   #7
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hifiZen:
Quote:
These are the same reasons you will very rarely see even an analog RGB computer-style interface on standalone DVD players.
I'm a bit surprised you say this, of the 10 players I looked at, at Best Buy, I'd say 6 of them had analog RGB out.

I'm also trying to find a Surround Sound decoder that doesn't have a receiver built in, thinking maybe I'd just pass SPDIF out of a PC to a receiver, but it appears nowdays everything is horribly integrated. (there was another thread on this).

CF: Thanks - guess that's Lug the PC out in the short term <G>
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Old 8th April 2002, 11:16 AM   #8
hifiZen is offline hifiZen  Canada
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Quote:
of the 10 players I looked at, at Best Buy, I'd say 6 of them had analog RGB out.
Really? Are you sure these were the computer monitor style DIN-15 connectors for RGB, or are you thinking of component video, which is YCrCb (eg. three RCA connectors - often misleadingly coloured red green and blue)?

If the former, I'd be interested in what make and model they were.
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Old 8th April 2002, 12:34 PM   #9
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Default RGB in Europe, Y/Cb/Cr component in US

RGB-signal is the most commonly used video output signal in Europe with DVD players. It is almost always piped out through the SCART (Euro) connector.

US players almost always output Y/Cb/Cr component through 3xRCA connectors.

hifiZen

I believe DVI-D output for DVD players has an encryption standard called Panel Link / HDCP.

Also, Tag McLaren has come out with a progressive DVI-output board for their DVD-32R and DVD-32FLR standalone dvd players.

It outputs PAL and NTSC progressive through DVI.

Yes, they are very expensive: up to 8000 euros.

Also, where do you get the inside information that LSI / C-Cube's Ziva-5 has better de-interlacing than Genesis (Sage Faroudja) FLI2200?

Also, Ziva-5 being an older design dating back to 2000 it has has a chroma upsampling error as it is an integrated solution (including an mpeg decompressor) from the time before this problem was known.

As for DVI output benefits being overshadowed by good AD/DA conversion for RGB/Component outputs... I dare you to try a Ravisent 4.0 decoding engine using ATI Radeon 10-bit video card straight out DVI-D output into a DVI-D input of a digital projector with 1:1 pixel mapping.

You'll be amazed as to where the motion dither, black level noise and other artifacts disappeared.

DVI in conjunction with digital projectors is a revelation.


best regards,
Halcyon
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Old 8th April 2002, 09:36 PM   #10
alvaius is offline alvaius  Canada
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Video input\scaling\de-interlacing chips from Genesis\ADI\Philips already have DVI inputs. Chip sets to support HD televisions with DVI are forthcoming. This will reduce the adder for DVI input to a TV to a bare minimum and given that the HD TV market is highly differentiated, this could be a big selling point for early adopters both at the TV and DVD side. That should drive the market.
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