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Old 2nd November 2013, 09:19 PM   #81
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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It can be as bad with photography, the processed picture crew Vs the purist, then there is the HDR debate.
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Old 2nd November 2013, 10:00 PM   #82
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Yes, interesting parallels with the process of hearing - the eye/brain can adapt to situations of extreme contrast, say, looking at a landscape where there is intense brightness in the sky and relative dark surface detail on the ground - in the mind's 'eye' the detail of both areas can be perceived at the 'same time', yet a conventional photo of that will be hopeless, the 'real' image won't match what the mind has made of what it sees.

And of course that is what happens in audio too - better systems allow the mind's ability to create an effective balance between the 'light and shade' in the sound to fully engage ...
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Old 2nd November 2013, 11:41 PM   #83
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If you don't take the product seriously, why expend so much time and energy talking about it? Is it some kind of therapy because other people don't think the way you do? I don't see entire threads from people who like 'audiophool' products tearing apart those who roll their eyes at them.

It's like an obsession for some of you. I used to be on the 'objective' fence until I realized that word mostly meant sarcasm and put-downs and OMG ridiculous amounts of armchair psychology. There's another word for that kind of personality - well several - and it's no wonder there's a stark divide.
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Old 2nd November 2013, 11:47 PM   #84
davym is offline davym  Scotland
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Old 3rd November 2013, 09:31 AM   #85
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by wushuliu View Post
If you don't take the product seriously, why expend so much time and energy talking about it? Is it some kind of therapy because other people don't think the way you do? I don't see entire threads from people who like 'audiophool' products tearing apart those who roll their eyes at them.

It's like an obsession for some of you. I used to be on the 'objective' fence until I realized that word mostly meant sarcasm and put-downs and OMG ridiculous amounts of armchair psychology. There's another word for that kind of personality - well several - and it's no wonder there's a stark divide.
We are commenting on what is a badly looking put together product that cost thousands, in other cases we tend to comment on sheer frauds that defy the laws of physics. Most I know who do the same do so in a polite and respectful way (apart from certain devices), and generally just ask how or why someone thinks this product/idea works and what mechanisms are at play. So you are wrong in saying sarcasm and put-downs, a lot is open debate. This view of objectives (LOL, most are subjective as well, and most are more dedicated at forwarding sound reproduction than the majority of subjective audiophiles on this site) is based on engineering and physics principles.
I would suggest with views like you have (the inability to listen to the other sides view) you hang out on the many numerous Audiophile forums where the crazy views ideas cable worship can be conducted without any input allowed from objectives, or as I saw the other day a person who mentioned if there were any measurements call a troll.
Me I listen to all views (to do otherwise is a dangerous precedent as history has shown and still shows what narrow minded close viewed people are capable of in making others follow their views) and enjoy the debates we have here, often light hearted often frustrating but most importantly OPEN UNRESTRICTED DEBATE.
All most of us are trying to do is improve sound reproduction via good engineering practices, not hocus pocus voodoo.
I could say the same thing as you have only juxtaposed, as I have been insulted 4 times by subjective Audiophiles in the past several years I have been active, mostly regarding my equipment and thus I am not qualified to pass comment, again a narrow minded view. But mostly this is a fun site where some grumpy old objectives can vent their spleen and pour scorn on these poor defenceless subjective audiophiles.
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Old 3rd November 2013, 10:26 AM   #86
davym is offline davym  Scotland
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There is a forum for subjectivists - Welcome to Hi-Fi Subjectivist - a hifi discussion group • Portal

It's run by Richard Dunn of NVA amplifiers. He posts there under the name Dr Bunsen Honeydew. I have had a few of his amps over the years and they are quite good. However watch out if you do take part, he can be very rude indeed if he doesn't like your approach and is well known for being nasty to people for no good reason.

I did agree with SOME of his wisdom over the years but by no means all.

For many years he regularly preached about the evils of upgrade mains cables and iec sockets in favour of cheap captive leads. He fell out with many people and was banned from several forums to the point where he started his own.

However he has recently changed his tune, after insulting people over this issue for many years. Apparently his latest and most expensive amps are so good that he can indeed hear an improvement by fitting an 'upgrade' mains cable, so much so that he has decided to start selling one. Please forgive me for being a tad cynical

I just had a quick look at his forum and I see they have had a poll on which source sounds the best, vinyl gets 88% of the vote (all of 14 people decided that outcome)

I think i'll stick to being as open minded about things as I reasonably can be, for an objectivist

P/S sorry about the OT ramble but this thread appears to be going nowhere constructive now anyway.

Edit - I like how this forum somehow adds the words "&bull portal" at the end of links, very apt in the case of his forum I think.
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Last edited by davym; 3rd November 2013 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 3rd November 2013, 11:34 AM   #87
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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I don't want one forum over the other, that's why I like it here, we do discuss things from all sides, I think forums dedicated to just one view and banning all others is worse.
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Old 3rd November 2013, 12:56 PM   #88
davym is offline davym  Scotland
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Good call!
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Old 3rd November 2013, 01:09 PM   #89
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davym View Post
There is a forum for subjectivists
There's a difference between "subjective" and "irrational." Using human senses and judgements for evaluation is subjective and rational. Denying the basics about human sensory processing and refusing to do actual experiments that give results that are contrary to what one desires them to be is irrational.

It is only the irrational who censor views contrary to their own.
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Old 3rd November 2013, 01:23 PM   #90
davym is offline davym  Scotland
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IMO there are many people who make a good living from being irrational.

I don't like censorship, arguments can sometimes be constructive but censorship cannot.
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