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Old 27th October 2013, 10:15 PM   #21
jtwrace is offline jtwrace  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marce View Post
I notice on the other site linked that mention the measurement word and they are shouting for moderators to protect them from evils trolls who ruin their dreams with reality...
Yes sir. It's so sad to me. They love to drink the subjective Kool-Aid >>>>
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Old 28th October 2013, 02:23 AM   #22
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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For the chap behind these products, the proof is in the eating - the 2nd best sound at the Sydney hifi show was sourced through one of his units. How was it 'good'? Zero 'digital edge', the ability to throw up a big sound space, full of fine detail, that you could mentally walk into - no low level 'nasties' lurking to slowly wear down your interest in continuing to listen ...
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Old 28th October 2013, 03:49 AM   #23
limono is offline limono  United States
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
For the chap behind these products, the proof is in the eating - the 2nd best sound at the Sydney hifi show was sourced through one of his units. How was it 'good'? Zero 'digital edge', the ability to throw up a big sound space, full of fine detail, that you could mentally walk into - no low level 'nasties' lurking to slowly wear down your interest in continuing to listen ...
Yup, very predictable
I always said that High-End is dead since a "fool" with soldering iron in a garage can do as well or better. The follow up responses should be that its only because it looks like a vomit the sound has that special spectacular quality and any effort to make the unit looking like the maker respects his customer or rules of craft would make the sound to go south. Sure , if it sounds better than $15k dacs it is certainly worth the mere $4.5k , a rare bargain actually.
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Old 28th October 2013, 11:25 AM   #24
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Yet it looks like a bodge job, there are no real digital techniques used, it all pays homage to audiofool design and boutique components...I would love to see some measurements.
Of course I expect something that by construction is going to accentuate any digital problems to sound great and have no digital artefacts, whereas when we do a 50 channel phase array board using all the right engineering ways it obviously wont work because we in the real world don't know what we are doing. The only reason it gets rave revues because it fits the bill, hand made, audiophile capacitors, valves (are these valves filtering or just output). My bet is that it would struggle to pass any EMC tests, and there is lots of distortion that true audiophiles seem to love, as for jitter and other digital artefacts.
At the end of the day though non of this is any excuse for selling a commercial product that is put together so badly, and looks like my grandkids assembled it, nor is it any excuse for not following real engineering practices especially when it comes to digital...
like I have said I would be ashamed to show the insides of a component I had assembled and built if it looked like that.
Any pointers to measurements or white papers by this lot would be grateful received, I am dying to read their views on grounding of digital and mixed signal systems.

Oh and when I listen to digital based recordings I CANNOT hear these dreaded digital artefacts that so many audiophiles claim to hear, I am beginning to think it is just mass hysteria, or one of the tenets of the Audiophile religion, along with silver cables sound brighter, physics is for numskulls, bags of stones can effect the sound and aerospace engineers moonlight to create super doper components and systems that you never see in real world electronics.........
Arrrggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!
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Old 28th October 2013, 11:26 AM   #25
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by jtwrace View Post
Yes sir. It's so sad to me. They love to drink the subjective Kool-Aid >>>>
Fun thread though thanks for the link
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Old 28th October 2013, 09:05 PM   #26
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Lampizator is quite popular builder of custom audio electronics in Poland. Although I don't subscribe to he's "lampization" CD and DAC theories, I consider these products fine for one-man shop.

BTW, compared to $12,000 CD player and $55,000 DAC 5 Signature (with AD1865 inside) from AudioNote UK it is not that expensive.

PS. There are no sound logic on boutique and luxury item market and probably never be.

Last edited by LinuksGuru; 28th October 2013 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 28th October 2013, 09:53 PM   #27
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marce View Post
My bet is that it would struggle to pass any EMC tests, and there is lots of distortion that true audiophiles seem to love, as for jitter and other digital artefacts.
At the end of the day though non of this is any excuse for selling a commercial product that is put together so badly, and looks like my grandkids assembled it, nor is it any excuse for not following real engineering practices especially when it comes to digital...
like I have said I would be ashamed to show the insides of a component I had assembled and built if it looked like that.
Any pointers to measurements or white papers by this lot would be grateful received, I am dying to read their views on grounding of digital and mixed signal systems.

Oh and when I listen to digital based recordings I CANNOT hear these dreaded digital artefacts that so many audiophiles claim to hear, I am beginning to think it is just mass hysteria, or one of the tenets of the Audiophile religion, along with silver cables sound brighter, physics is for numskulls, bags of stones can effect the sound and aerospace engineers moonlight to create super doper components and systems that you never see in real world electronics.........
Arrrggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!
Marce, that system did have problems with interference, whether due to EMC or other factors I can't say, nor which aspect of the system was reacting -- when running off a music server, the normal configuration, it was fine, but degraded very significantly when fed from a CD transport.

How can I hear these things? Well, no-one gets excited when someone says they hear differences between speakers, this is totally acceptable behaviour - hearing differences between source components is the same deal, the subjective impression of what you're hearing alters, and if you then go about it methodically you can track down precisely where the sound has altered, where the distortion is ...
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Old 29th October 2013, 07:40 AM   #28
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Frank,
I have an old Kenwood CD player, a Marantz CD63 (now poorly) also numerous DVD players and Blu Ray players. I do perceive the presentation between the Kenwood and the modern Blu Ray/DVD players different, and If I was to wax lyrical, I find the Kenwood more listenable, though the Blu Rays are not optimised for music reproduction so the output stages are almost an afterthought (chip based, not op-amps) whereas the Kenwood (and the Marantz were optimised for music). So I am not a total cloth ears and I do listen and notice sound differences. This is the reason why all my CD's went on to a dedicated PC, it was cheaper than a new dedicated CD player, I use numerous Logitech CD players wirelessly so have no problems with the PC noise, and when funds allow I will upgrade to a newer wireless system. Mainly because the logitechs are now defunct, but for the next few years this system will suffice.
But I also measure and if I suspect noise or distortion I will get things checked out, and doing a lot of work for Communication Systems I am lucky in that I can pester to well qualified engineers to do this for me properly, so I am lucky.
By the same token I see regularly how well digital audio transmission works and how solid it is.
Marc
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Old 29th October 2013, 09:20 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marce View Post
Frank,
I have an old Kenwood CD player, a Marantz CD63 (now poorly) also numerous DVD players and Blu Ray players. I do perceive the presentation between the Kenwood and the modern Blu Ray/DVD players different, and If I was to wax lyrical, I find the Kenwood more listenable, though the Blu Rays are not optimised for music reproduction so the output stages are almost an afterthought (chip based, not op-amps) whereas the Kenwood (and the Marantz were optimised for music). So I am not a total cloth ears and I do listen and notice sound differences. This is the reason why all my CD's went on to a dedicated PC, it was cheaper than a new dedicated CD player, I use numerous Logitech CD players wirelessly so have no problems with the PC noise, and when funds allow I will upgrade to a newer wireless system. Mainly because the logitechs are now defunct, but for the next few years this system will suffice.
But I also measure and if I suspect noise or distortion I will get things checked out, and doing a lot of work for Communication Systems I am lucky in that I can pester to well qualified engineers to do this for me properly, so I am lucky.
By the same token I see regularly how well digital audio transmission works and how solid it is.
Marc
You listen to cds off a PC and use Logitech CD players and have the cheek to criticise Lampizator...
Not much point in getting things measured if you are happy with the sound from the above.
Lampizators products would be wasted on you me think.
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Old 29th October 2013, 10:11 AM   #30
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We thank him for providing good laughs; where's the criticism?
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