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Old 5th August 2013, 03:40 PM   #21
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Default Real Measurements...

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Originally Posted by marce View Post
Again though without SIV software and 3D field solvers etc you can only approximate or guess.
That's what TDR is for.

Dan.
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Old 5th August 2013, 04:19 PM   #22
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Yep, but getting it right first is the best bet, with simulation you can engineer the solution before hand, modelling any termination that may be required. Though for SPDIF both are probably overkill and how many on this site would have either at there disposal, I don't have a TDR, though.
Using a TDR you would have to set the pulse to match the driver output.
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Old 5th August 2013, 05:59 PM   #23
dmills is offline dmills  United Kingdom
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For spdif sort of speeds, most of us have a scope that is quick enouth and a signal generator buffered with a 'AC04 or such will, if fed to the cable via a suitable resistance and a bnc T on the front of scope make a simple minded TDR (Also quite useful for finding the distance to a short in a installed 75 ohm line).

Sure a proper fast TDR is nice, but you can improvise ways to do these tests.

My take on it is that if a different basically competent cable makes a difference then either the transmitter or the recever (or both) is sub standard (Possibly a clock recovery problem or something), a cable and its driver/recever can at best be transparent, if it makes any difference it is because something in the chain is not fit for purpose.

Now, those of us familiar with these methods wont bother, because figure we understand at least enough, and the guys advocating silver wire for a low speed manchester coded link will not do them because they lack the RF and signal integrity skills to understand the results.

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Old 5th August 2013, 10:13 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by marce View Post
As Mark as pointed out and I have mentioned the rise time (and fall time) are the determining factors for spectral content of digital signals, look up Knee frequency:
Fknee=1/Squ Rt Tr
1 over the square root of the rise time.....
Again though without SIV software and 3D field solvers etc you can only approximate or guess.

And just in case, using silver as the conductor does not make the signal travel faster than it does in a copper conductor, which I believe was what was being hinted at with the mention of silver conductors.

Some notes on skin effect (and ground effect) just to add a bit of icing to the discussion...
http://www.ultracad.com/articles/skin%20effect.pdf

I like to adhere to white papers, designs based on analytical research and objectivism.

But I also allowed myself to trust my observations. It didn't happen quickly or early enough in my life, but luckily - it did happen. Try to listen to a pure silver, properly constructed SPDIF cable. The speed, amount of detail, natural presence and space will blow you away. 90% of people who heard these cables were completely unprepared when presented with such sound. The rest of the system has to be very, very good.
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Old 5th August 2013, 10:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dmills View Post

My take on it is that if a different basically competent cable makes a difference then either the transmitter or the receiver (or both) is sub standard (Possibly a clock recovery problem or something), a cable and its driver/recever can at best be transparent, if it makes any difference it is because something in the chain is not fit for purpose.



Regards, Dan.
The SPDIF cable I've been referring to in this thread is very expensive. If I see the opportunity to sell it, and if the customer is a believer willing to pay, the accessories that come with the cable at no extra cost are the installation of high quality pulse transformers at both ends of the signal chain. That is indeed as important as the cable itself.

Boky
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Old 6th August 2013, 06:11 AM   #26
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Quote:
But I also allowed myself to trust my observations. It didn't happen quickly or early enough in my life, but luckily - it did happen. Try to listen to a pure silver, properly constructed SPDIF cable. The speed, amount of detail, natural presence and space will blow you away. 90% of people who heard these cables were completely unprepared when presented with such sound. The rest of the system has to be very, very good.
again I am cynical, how would silver make any difference...
Hah pulse transformer....so its not just a cable.
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Old 6th August 2013, 09:08 AM   #27
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky
90% of people who heard these cables were completely unprepared when presented with such sound.
Now don't tell me, let me guess: those people knew that a silver cable was being demonstrated, or at least the presenter knew?

Quote:
The rest of the system has to be very, very good.
Ah, the standard 'high-end' get-out clause: if you can't hear it that means your ears/system/brain is not good enough to hear what more sophisticated/wealthy/gullible people can hear.

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The SPDIF cable I've been referring to in this thread is very expensive. If I see the opportunity to sell it, and if the customer is a believer willing to pay . . .
Now I understand.
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Old 6th August 2013, 09:13 AM   #28
SY is offline SY  United States
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Ah, the standard 'high-end' get-out clause:
One of three, to be fair.

1. Your system isn't good enough.
2. Your ears aren't good enough.
3. You don't know what live music sounds like.

Expect 2 and 3 next, though the order often changes.
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Old 6th August 2013, 09:22 AM   #29
ramallo is offline ramallo  Europe
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IMHO, the best cable I could measure in "jitter terms" with my tektronix, is the Canare LV61S. The good news: is very cheap

Canare Corp.: 75 ohm Coaxial Cable: 75 ohm Video Coaxial Cable(LV-61S)

Also Canare have 75 Ohm RCA

Canare Corp.: RCA Crimp Plugs: 75 ohm RCA Crimp Plug(RCAP-C Series)
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Old 6th August 2013, 09:38 AM   #30
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramallo
The good news: is very cheap
Somewhat surprisingly (to some people) good cables usually are quite cheap, as they are simply using good commercial quality cables and connectors which are carefully assembled. If you want a really bad cable you have to pay very little or quite a lot!
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