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Old 7th August 2013, 03:38 PM   #101
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I'm not buying silver as a meaningful upgrade at audio frequencies.
Its not relevant at SPDIF frequencies. It could be relevant for cables
that must simultaneously carry other data, like video...

But what would be relevant at any frequency is the non-linearity of
many dielectrics at the zero crossing. I have measured many times,
even the most expensive caps are not the same with/without bias...
You get slightly exaggerated measurement when no bias is present.

Solution is to always bias your dielectrics and avoid crossing 0V.
Most differential logic signals these days have a DC bias, and I
suspect that's not merely a convenience bias for direct coupling.
So, I ask if you price-no-object wacko's ever bother to bias your
signals or shields to set the behavior of the dielectric?

A highly resistive shield between signal and GND could be pulled
up or down oh-say 9VDC, and provide equal and opposite biases
with cancellation of dielectric distortions. Just sayin'

Last edited by kenpeter; 7th August 2013 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 7th August 2013, 04:15 PM   #102
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I guess the point has already been clearly put by E_Boky; this silver cables are inteded for wealthy audiophile believers.

Being wealthy they can even do without belief. They just get the best stuff. Better (may we say high value) materials, better construction. Redundant performance for the task involved.
Period.

Analogy: what about wrist watches? What tells you the time better? A $20 radio controlled or a $50.000 Omega? Which of both do wealthy people get?
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Old 7th August 2013, 04:36 PM   #103
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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you give way too much credit, its a big stretch to say its best, its suboptimal, just happens to be shiny in this case. it is not unusual for performance to be a secondary goal, playing second fiddle to bragging rights
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Old 7th August 2013, 08:44 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marce View Post
Skin effect, not relevant at audio frequencies...plent of discussion out there regarding this, myth.
Why is silver better than copper, again no evidence only hear say...
How is cross section and shape going to effect the sound?
Do you actually know how a.c. signals travel down a wire, this all sound Audiophile myths based to sell an overpriced/under engineered part, of which there are plenty off in the esoteric end of audio.
All you need now is some cryogenic and quantum treatment and your on to a killer, even audio RCA's can break the rules of physics and be a 75ohm connector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Complete nonsense.


In your dreams!


As I said (and Canare agrees): not possible. You would need a wideband negative index material to get a 75 ohm RCA. There are no wideband negative index materials.


I think if you read what they say themselves, you will see that they make no claim that the connection is 75R but merely that they maintain 75R right up the unavoidable impedance discontinuity at the connection.

Silver is fine for making jewellery - even 200W per channel 'high-end' audio jewellery. Nothing to do with sound quality. As I have said before, the best way to sell snake oil is when the seller believes in it himself. Then he doesn't have to fake his advocacy and he doesn't have to feel guilty about ripping people off.

Audio interconnects and digital interconnects are such different beasts operating under such different conditions that there is no reason why a technique which works for one would work for the other. Provided they are short, they are both uncritical (within reasonable bounds, exceeded only by daft DIY cables). There is no electrical reason why silver/teflon should be better for both, but there is an electrical reason why it might be worse (especially for digital)!
fine, whatever keeps your egos happy
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Old 7th August 2013, 08:59 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post
I'll ask a question as well:

Have you ever tried a piece of silver wire (10cm is enough) anywhere in a signal chain as a replacement for a standard multi-litz copper wire?
I have used silver plated OFC for my internal speaker wire, just because I had some laying around (actually leftovers from work). Not in S/PDIF connections, because of the reasons already mentioned. How would the skin effect be reduced / affected by a solid silver wire? Actually Litz wire should be better in this case..
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Old 7th August 2013, 09:05 PM   #106
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the most basic mod I do on equipment that costs in excess of $15,000 is just the replacement of the copper hook-up-wire with silver ribbons. This is by far the best bang for a buck modification that does provide excellent results; in fact, sound-wise, it provides much better return than spending extra $10,000 to upgrade the equipment. The difference blows everyone off their feet. I've also done multiple comparisons between two identical pre-amps, for example, where one is modified, and the other stays in its original condition. The difference is so obvious that even the hard-core non-believers start to beg for the same mods... I’m not going to say how much money I can charge for this relatively simple mod that costs me very little money in parts.

People pay because they can hear the difference.
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Old 7th August 2013, 09:14 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark.Clappers View Post
I have used silver plated OFC for my internal speaker wire, just because I had some laying around (actually leftovers from work). Not in S/PDIF connections, because of the reasons already mentioned. How would the skin effect be reduced / affected by a solid silver wire? Actually Litz wire should be better in this case..
the skin effect can be reduced if you use multiple runs of solid core silver wire, in parallel. I did not say at any stage here, to use silver plated copper wire.

Why do you think that the litz wire will be better? You may think that the more is better, but think also about signal consistency.

Of course, you can also try for yourself.

The 6C33C (well, it is actually 6S33S) single ended amp we make, has the output transformers' winding (and all of its internal hook-up wiring) made of pure silver. Sound made in heaven... but it usually takes time and getting used-to to accept that sound can be as fast as live performance, for example. It's the mind-set change.
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Old 7th August 2013, 09:29 PM   #108
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Well the skin effect theory -in a nutshell- tells us that the higher the frequency the less penetration of the current in the conductor. So many thin wires carrying the current should be less effected than a couple of thick wires.

You make an interesting point when you say that the difference is easy to hear, if so it should also be relatively easy to measure, A THD+N vs. Frequency graph + an IMD measurement of both the original and modded amp can tell us a lot.
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Old 7th August 2013, 10:13 PM   #109
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpeter
But what would be relevant at any frequency is the non-linearity of
many dielectrics at the zero crossing. I have measured many times,
even the most expensive caps are not the same with/without bias...
You get slightly exaggerated measurement when no bias is present.
Would you like to publish your results? I have seen claims of zero-crossing behaviour before but never seen any evidence, apart from clearly non-linear dielectrics which people are unlikely to use for audio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky
but it usually takes time and getting used-to
That suggests a new low-level distortion or frequency anomaly, which ears take time to adjust to. Not that surprising in 'high-end' equipment.
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:06 PM   #110
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Why a first class DAC (the one I have in front of my eyes right now) would come with RCA input connectors given the claimed fact by lots of people that it does not meet 75 ohm compatibility?
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