As my system has gotten better I've also invested much more in software than in hardware
When I listen to my "software" I don't want to think of 'tails' or anything else. I want to be hooked. I want my fix, OK?
Cheers, Joe R.
Was this DIYA?
For a second I thought I was listening to Mr James Brown my brothers and sisters
James Brown performs Live 8, Edinburgh, 2005 - YouTube
Get on up !
Z
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I have been in touch with Epson Toyocom in Singapore, spoke to a nice Anne there and since been in contact via emails. Her latest email:
Hi Joe,
We are still waiting for factory’s advice as of current status, probably will get confirmation over the next few days.
I will get back to you as soon as factory gives their confirmation. Thanks and have a nice day.
Warmest Regards,
Anne
So we may have some 54MHz SAW Oscillators available. I suspect they are doing one thousand - I have suggested to them, if the price is right, I will take a hundred.
So I hope this will work out. Keep in mind that these can be used on other players - 27MHz is the most common frequency in multi-players. Even Yamaha dedicated CD/SACD players use 27MHz (they use Mediatek DSP chip, just not all the functions in the chip). It can also be used on the Oppo 103 single-clock players.
Cheers, Joe R.
Hi Joe,
We are still waiting for factory’s advice as of current status, probably will get confirmation over the next few days.
I will get back to you as soon as factory gives their confirmation. Thanks and have a nice day.
Warmest Regards,
Anne
So we may have some 54MHz SAW Oscillators available. I suspect they are doing one thousand - I have suggested to them, if the price is right, I will take a hundred.
So I hope this will work out. Keep in mind that these can be used on other players - 27MHz is the most common frequency in multi-players. Even Yamaha dedicated CD/SACD players use 27MHz (they use Mediatek DSP chip, just not all the functions in the chip). It can also be used on the Oppo 103 single-clock players.
Cheers, Joe R.
Joe,
IME, at 100 off, they generally will be more than happy to supply complete
phase noise and Allan Variance plots for a few.
They would also most likely be happy to do these measurements with / WO
your low noise supply.
WRT our phone conversation, here is a good chance to learn some more
about SAW performance.
T
I mentioned that, and got no response... they just want to sell them, probably at about $3 each - and make them like the 50MHz version I am already using in the '95.
So a hundred off, it is not a pittance, but I can use them in so many other multi-players, so I doubt I will be taken much of a risk.
Could there be some aspect of the fundamental operation of a SAW oscillator, that makes it potentially have superior PSRR - because, on reflecting, the improvement heard does sound like that.
I have made a few suggestions elsewhere about trying the SAW 100MHz in Sabre DACs, the reaction has been wide to the EXTREME. Some very positive and "I'll give it a go" to others just want to ridicule you for making a suggestion and "it's only a cheap oscillator" - so an open mind is still influenced by known dogmatism and that old bug-bear, price.
But it remains the question - is there something inherent in SAW oscillators that we are not yet fully aware of? Nobody who even makes these things are thinking audio.
Example: If I found a new kind of industrial non-audio capacitor made using a different technique, material or whatever, and is cheaper because it is has no 'label' - and I try it and I go "whoa, this is really different" and me thinks "what is going one here" - then I am saying that my reaction is pretty healthy.
I just say, try them - ain't gonna hurt.
Cheers, Joe
They all have PS dependance to some degree but it's all to see in the phase
noise plot and Allen Variance measurements.
I don't think so. As I have alluded to here and discussed with you, I know
users who hated Tent / Terra Firma / other low jitter clocks and built their
own clocks using various different power supplies.
I was pretty much convinced they were just playing with adding various
jitter spectra to tune their systems.
That's why I built my zenclock super low jitter OCXO based clock and had
designed a jitter addition circuit for it in specific adjustable frequency areas.
I was convinced that was required. As it turns out I didn't have to use
the jitter addition circuit. But that's another story.
You know that I never said to ignore specs. I am not that way inclined.
But then again, I don't ignore my ears.
I think that I am much more objective that Steve and Mario... pretty sure about that.
And when I get "corrected" for pointing out measurements to some "subjective" purists, I still put on a fair argument that one cannot be so sweeping and that it is counter-productive and often an over-reaction. Most measurements can be validated, yet there are the exceptions. Those are usually opportunities to learn.
Re TF, wouldn't you take a 99% success rate any day or time of the year? Those two letters have made me many friends - whatever it does, I get the "it sounds much less digital" and "I hear things I never heard before" and "it seems to sound less obvious detailed". The irony is that 'digital' sound can be connected to analogue noise. It takes analogue thinking to improve digital sound.
Cheers, Joe
But then again, I don't ignore my ears.
I think that I am much more objective that Steve and Mario... pretty sure about that.
And when I get "corrected" for pointing out measurements to some "subjective" purists, I still put on a fair argument that one cannot be so sweeping and that it is counter-productive and often an over-reaction. Most measurements can be validated, yet there are the exceptions. Those are usually opportunities to learn.
Re TF, wouldn't you take a 99% success rate any day or time of the year? Those two letters have made me many friends - whatever it does, I get the "it sounds much less digital" and "I hear things I never heard before" and "it seems to sound less obvious detailed". The irony is that 'digital' sound can be connected to analogue noise. It takes analogue thinking to improve digital sound.
Cheers, Joe
Looks like you changed the resistors to Dale RN60 on the Audio board and a Different Main CAP on the SMPS board has it made an improvement?
I just received this:
Hi Joe,
The new production code has been confirmed, actual production need additional 6 to 9 wks, can be improved upon order.
Meanwhile, pls see quotation below as per our previous discussion.
Quotation reference No : MG/AC/Q/13/003
Manufacturer : Epson Toyocom
1) Epson PN: XG-1000CA 54MHz CC
2) Epson PN: XG-1000CA 100MHz CC
Unit Price: USD 2.80/PC
Sample MOQ: 50 ~ 150 PCS
SPQ: 1k/reel
Lead time: 6-9 weeks upon receipt of PO
Delivery Mode: EXWORKS SIN
(Pls indicate method of shipping upon order: registered Mail or courier service (DHL/Fedex), cost will be added to billing invoice)
Payment term: PayPal
Country of Origin: Japan
If you wish to proceed, kindly issue order to us. Thanks.
Warmest Regards,
Anne
Note that 6-9 weeks can be shortened if an order is placed.
They will make a thousand of each - Made in Japan.
The offer is also open for 100MHz and $2.80 per unit, but it needs to be a minimum of Fifty.
If anybody wants to order 50 of each, they may put the money into my PayPal account - joeras@vacummstate.com - but adjust to $2.90 to cover my PayPal fees.
Over to you and anybody else... comments from others please...
Cheers, Joe
PS: I am not seeking a cut in these transactions, only asking that cost be covered/shared. Can't be fairer than that.
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now where have I heard that before? oh yeah, I suggested it to you a few days ago in a desperate attempt to make a stab at a possible reason why something that clearly has worse phase noise everywhere that matters by epsons own specs, could perhaps work better under some use cases where the psu was not taken care of properly for the crystek or NDK and these 'superior clocks' were said to 'sound better'
i'm very skeptical of the claims and the conditions for the anecdotal tests, but I would like to be able to have a $3 clock that beats $150 clocks too, so wouldnt mind seeing the results of testing. the speeds are of no use to me personally so I wouldnt use them, but still handy.
I also made suggestions of who to send them to to be tested objectively ie. iancanada, who also has ndk and crystek for objective and subjective evaluation
not once did I say anything about price being a factor. I do not however believe there is something that science forgot here, no magic going on.
either
the people prefer higher jitter and interpret it as more detail
they had underdog or expectation bias
there was something wrong with the test set up
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Look, just go back to the other forum. That seems to be your preferred place to bag me.
Get that guy to get in touch with me and I will happily oblige - I don't like you particular kind of manners.
(Where do they cultivate these kind of people - in the hot sun of Queensland? Yet others from that state seem not so affected. My favourite place to holiday. America has its Deep South - we have Queensland. )
Get that guy to get in touch with me and I will happily oblige - I don't like you particular kind of manners.
(Where do they cultivate these kind of people - in the hot sun of Queensland? Yet others from that state seem not so affected. My favourite place to holiday. America has its Deep South - we have Queensland.
)
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Good news Joe. I think your proposal is fair and I appreciate that.
My only little worry in this is about the certified quality of this small production batch. Can we get/have a guaranty from Epson that those oscillators will be (all) in the data sheet specified parameters? I know that in such production fields, the factory can chose/select (for an high selling price) the components which have less (+/- %) deviation from specified parameters, and they can sell too the another resulting components with more tolerances, for a lower price. Or it may be also an mix of different deviations from specified parameters, and this is worse...
Do you think it is possible to get some more informations about the quality of this quite particular resulted production batch from Epson? It may be the highest quality oscillators (less as possible deviation from specified parameters) in this batch, for this announced price?
Anyway, thanks for your contribution/involvement in this.
I could see above that someone get desperate, and this is just regrettable...
I even like the idea: I will not use such (against my "religion"), but I think to buy few...50 or 100 Just for fun and for the price...
My only little worry in this is about the certified quality of this small production batch. Can we get/have a guaranty from Epson that those oscillators will be (all) in the data sheet specified parameters? I know that in such production fields, the factory can chose/select (for an high selling price) the components which have less (+/- %) deviation from specified parameters, and they can sell too the another resulting components with more tolerances, for a lower price. Or it may be also an mix of different deviations from specified parameters, and this is worse...
Do you think it is possible to get some more informations about the quality of this quite particular resulted production batch from Epson? It may be the highest quality oscillators (less as possible deviation from specified parameters) in this batch, for this announced price?
Anyway, thanks for your contribution/involvement in this.
I could see above that someone get desperate, and this is just regrettable...
I even like the idea: I will not use such (against my "religion"), but I think to buy few...50 or 100
Just for fun and for the price...
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wow, are you sure you speak English Coris? I simply corrected a claim that something was said about price, not once was price mentioned. I will not use it because its in stupid speeds, I run dual synchronous clocks, so a music frequency multiple is needed. also buying anything lower performance when its not needed is expensive... not cheap. but its good to know, I have more than one dac and I sometimes build them for friends.
who is the desperate one? your above desperate need to slap your buddies back results in you looking the fool
who is the desperate one? your above desperate need to slap your buddies back results in you looking the fool
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Why are you so condescending?
They are not "stupid speeds" - they are EXACTLY what we want.
100MHz is not a "stupid speed" for a Sabre DAC.
You do know that this forum is about the Sabre DAC, don't you?
Would you like a similar condescending speech aimed at you?
Hi Coris
From Epson Toyocom website:
XG-1000CA/CB (Crystal Oscillator Low-Jitter SAW Oscillator)
I have tried 100MHz, 125MHz and 50MHz from the same range - all good.
I really have no reason to doubt they will not follow the same specs - makes no sense why the shouldn't.
Specs:
XG-1000CA/CB | Real time Clock Module | Products | Epson Quartz Crystal Devices
Note: Made in Japan
Cheers, Joe
From Epson Toyocom website:
XG-1000CA/CB (Crystal Oscillator Low-Jitter SAW Oscillator)
I have tried 100MHz, 125MHz and 50MHz from the same range - all good.
I really have no reason to doubt they will not follow the same specs - makes no sense why the shouldn't.
Specs:
XG-1000CA/CB | Real time Clock Module | Products | Epson Quartz Crystal Devices
Note: Made in Japan
Cheers, Joe
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Hi Coris,
The data sheet Joe linked to doesn't really give enough information to
adequately characterize the clocks performance. Much more is required.
The reason is they are a comparatively low spec clock.
Manufacturers generally don't bother supplying phase noise and Allan
Variance plots for low spec oscillators, there's no point.
If you want to guarantee consistency, this is the way they do it and has
always been done. If they are supplying super low phase noise clocks for
space applications the customers will demand it.
The more I think about it the more I am convinced these SAW oscillators
have a fairly high jitter compared to the best crystal oscillators but the
jitter spectrum is spread such that subjectively they sound good.
I gave an example previously of comparisons between high spec oscillators
where often the lowest jitter didn't win subjectively. Unfortunately Joe
took this personally. My research on this doesn't cover just a few people
but many peoples experience over many years.
As I have stated previously, there also may be something in this jitter
spectrum spread that works well with Sabres internal ASRC. Remember
Sabre has internal re sampling engine to reduce jitter.