I think the laser in my beloved Wadia WT-2000 is starting to die. it starts skipping when it gets warm. So tonight I grabbed a Denon DVD-3800 to use as a transport and i was SHOCKED at the sonic differences! No mind you I am only using the Denon as a transport. using the SPDIF out to my DAC just as I am doing with the Wadia.
The Wadia has a very 3 dimensional sound quality to it. almost holographic, switching to the Denon it sounded...well...MONO. collapsed sound stage, harsh. But it does present center vocals in a more forward way where as the Wadia has less focus on center vocal images. The difference was just so drastic. I had NO idea that a basic transport could make THAT much of a difference!
ugh....
Zc
The Wadia has a very 3 dimensional sound quality to it. almost holographic, switching to the Denon it sounded...well...MONO. collapsed sound stage, harsh. But it does present center vocals in a more forward way where as the Wadia has less focus on center vocal images. The difference was just so drastic. I had NO idea that a basic transport could make THAT much of a difference!
ugh....
Zc
If you think it's good using the SPIDF, you should hear it using indexing fluid and the AT&T ST Glass connection if your dac has ST input, it's even better.
And If you by some chance have the WT2000S that is better again. (attached is the difference between the 2000 and 2000S).
Cheers George
And If you by some chance have the WT2000S that is better again. (attached is the difference between the 2000 and 2000S).
Cheers George
Attachments
I has these orange ones or similar, the specs were almost double as fast as the Wadia supplied glass one, and I thought they sounded a bit better.
Fiber Optic Cable Multimode Simplex 62.5/125 ST-ST 1M | eBay
Indexing fluid is a must, expensive for a few drops but worth it, a little dab on the ends before you put them in is all you need, until you remove them again.
9006 - Norland Index Matching Liquid 150 - 6 gram syringe - Fiber Optics For Sale Co.
Cheers George
Fiber Optic Cable Multimode Simplex 62.5/125 ST-ST 1M | eBay
Indexing fluid is a must, expensive for a few drops but worth it, a little dab on the ends before you put them in is all you need, until you remove them again.
9006 - Norland Index Matching Liquid 150 - 6 gram syringe - Fiber Optics For Sale Co.
Cheers George
Just hunt down a new laser for it ( Sony KSS-151A), they are out there, I found two, in the first manufacturer I tried, rather than search the usual laser suppliers I looked at all the different manufacturers that used the KSS-151A in some of there models.
I found mine in the parts division of Denon Australia you should find out what their part # was for the KSS-151A before harassing them with the Sony # To do that look at some circuit diagrams that used the KSS-151A and you'll find that manufacturers Part # of the same thing.
I bet there are hundreds still in the corners in spare parts division if I found 2 in the first place I tried. And I only paid $79 each for them, which was the price back then.
Cheers George
I found mine in the parts division of Denon Australia you should find out what their part # was for the KSS-151A before harassing them with the Sony # To do that look at some circuit diagrams that used the KSS-151A and you'll find that manufacturers Part # of the same thing.
I bet there are hundreds still in the corners in spare parts division if I found 2 in the first place I tried. And I only paid $79 each for them, which was the price back then.
Cheers George
Then why'd you pay for a Wadia?
For all the other good things AT&T ST glass, BNC, + other outputs. The way they have isolated the transport offboard power supply using big Toroidals, goood quality clocks/electronics used from Teac moded to suit themselves eg AT&T output. And upper end Teac VRDS mechs. It all adds up to sound better than the Teac equivelent.
Cheers George
The WT-2000 is the Wadia I always wanted but never could afford. Last year I was able to purchase one at a reasonable price but it is well used. I didn't expect it would last long and frankly I was surprised it would even play CD-R discs! So to me, it is worth fixing beyond what it is actually worth!
This is a possibility on a well used machine, but it's worth checking out if it's still correctly adjusted first. I've had to have my Nakamichi CD-4 (Sony mech with KSS-something laser) readjusted once for the same symptoms. There was no need for laser replacement.
Since you're going to have to do the adjustment procedure with a new laser anyway, it's worth trying it on the one that's inside the Wadia now first (I'm assuming the Wadia has the same four-pot adjustment for the mech as my Nak).
This reminds me of some 20 years ago when I head a look at a friend's malfunctioning Sansui CD-player. This was part of a set with the DACs and most of the other component's PSUs in the amp.
The Sony mech would play fine at the beginning but start skipping halfway through a CD. Turned out there was something wrong with the laser sled.
Just for fun I connected my Marantz CD60 to the electrical SPDIF input of the amp and the Sansui to the optical and compared. We're talking about cheap equipment here (in the case of the Sansui), but the differences were bigger than I could ever have expected from a digital source. The Sansui sounded cold, thin and metallic, the Marantz sounded warm and full-bodied.
No doubt the difference had a lot to do with the malfunctioning laser sled that must have led to huge amounts of jitter.
I'm wondering, would this be the result of more jitter from the Denon?
Maybe they don't go out as a rule, but my Nak they did.
A new laser will need the adjustment procedure done, it's improbable that the new unit will work perfectly without readjusting, it actually may be worse.
Laser gain has been set at the factory for life, so indeed, keep off that one.
A new laser will need the adjustment procedure done, it's improbable that the new unit will work perfectly without readjusting, it actually may be worse.
Laser gain has been set at the factory for life, so indeed, keep off that one.
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SPDIF connection always adds jitter (compared with internal i2s). That Denon most likely would sound better by it's own, then through the connection to Wadia. At least on the analog output would make use of the AL24 Processing Plus. Unfortunatelly, the DVD-3800 are well known for poor lasers that fail in large proportion...
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MEGA THANKS GeorgeHifi! for that bit of service info. I have some connections at Wadia but there is almost no service info available on these old units as Wadia has been reborn 3 times over now with three subsequent moves from Wisconsin to Michigan and now to Minnesota and i have been told much has been lost along the way.
The dac I am using is one I Built and exhibited at Burning amp last year. I used the same input for both units but different cables. I'm wondering now if the cables are to blame? I am going to have to do some more experimentation with both units. for example it always seems to play the beginning of the cd fine and then starts skipping once i get to around track 8 or 9. so the unit is very warm by that time and or maybe the sled needs lubrication. Today I will start with a cold transport and go right to track 8 and see if i can play the last few songs on the cd with out issue and see if it is something that is temp related or is it mechanical. I will also try a different cd and see if it plays all the way through. this particular cd i have been trying to play is a store bought cd and looks new. no scratches or marks etc. and it is known to play just fine on several other players. So that will be interesting.
The dac I am using is one I Built and exhibited at Burning amp last year. I used the same input for both units but different cables. I'm wondering now if the cables are to blame? I am going to have to do some more experimentation with both units. for example it always seems to play the beginning of the cd fine and then starts skipping once i get to around track 8 or 9. so the unit is very warm by that time and or maybe the sled needs lubrication. Today I will start with a cold transport and go right to track 8 and see if i can play the last few songs on the cd with out issue and see if it is something that is temp related or is it mechanical. I will also try a different cd and see if it plays all the way through. this particular cd i have been trying to play is a store bought cd and looks new. no scratches or marks etc. and it is known to play just fine on several other players. So that will be interesting.
I recently used the Denon for a listening session at an event where we played about 2 hours worth of material from various cd's using the denons analog outputs and the unit as a CD player worked just fine. It does have the video freezing issue that most of the 3800's have and that's why my friend gave it to me. he was so frustrated with it, he figured i could use it for parts or something. but i found it worked just fine as a cd player.
IF there really is this big of a difference in just transports for whatever reason...then this really shakes my core related to other methods of digital playback such as music servers and the like. I have read instances where people claim that they can hear a difference between 2 different cd's of the exact same material but i have never been able to hear such differences...boy i sure can now! and it is repeatable!
This has all been a very interesting learning experience!
and to share. this is what service info I have for the Wt-2000
WT2000 CD Transport: The WT2000 had an early version of the P-2 CD mechanism, which was the top of the line from TEAC/Esoteric at that time. The unit was later upgraded with the P-2S platter and motor assembly. The WT-2000 was essentially an Esoteric P-2 with a Wadia chassis and a Wadia Power supply. There was also a Wadia designed output board that was the first unit to utilize ST glass fiber output. Big and sturdy, but with many sharp edges, so it scratches or silvers easily. Be very careful when reinstalling the top cover – the metal under the top cover is very thin and strips easily!
Common Problems:
· Will not read CDs or skips: the spindle may be bent. Remove the top cover and spin the platter with your finger. If it has a serious wobble from side to side, the platter assembly may need to be replaced. Try a new laser pick-up first to make sure the pickup hasn’t simply become weak. As far as I know, the P-2 platter assembly is no longer available, so customer would have to upgrade to the P-2S.
· Will not read CDs or skips: laser may be weak or needs adjusting. Adjustment instructions are in the W7 Service Manual. Lock the laser in the rest position and close the drawer – if the lens does not move up and down three times or if there is no red light coming from the lens (look at an angle, not directly at it!), it’s dead. It uses a Sony KSS-151A, available from either TEAC or AXISS.
· Will not read CDs or skips: the bearing cap is worn. Remove the three screws that secure the white bearing cap on top of the bridge assembly. If a pit has been worn in the center where the spindle presses against the underside, it needs to be replaced. The pickup assembly should be readjusted after replacing.
· Will not read CDs or skips: the laser bearing shaft needs to be cleaned and lubricated. Remove the laser pickup and the polished laser bearing shaft that it glides on. Clean the shaft with acetone and reinstall the assembly. Lubricate it with two drops of Teflon based electronics lubricant (one on either side of the pickup), available in precision applicator tubes from Radio Shack (much cheaper than ordering huge cans of the stuff from Molykote). Move the pickup back and forth a few times to spread the lubricant around evenly along the shaft. (See the W860 Service Manual for a related bulletin.)
· Will not read CDs: There is an IC on the servo board of the unit beneath the mechanism that can short out against the frame of the mechanism if the unit is jarred or if the mechanism is pressed down. The IC must be replaced and then bent sideways so that it will not make contact with the mechanism again.
· Drawer opens and closes by itself or won’t stay open or closed: the optical sensor in the front of the unit near and above the tray opening is misaligned. It needs to be aligned. Instructions are in the W7 Service Manual.
· Drawer opens and closes by itself or won’t stay open or closed: the switch near the rail on one side or the switch near the back of the unit are most likely broken – the little finger that they use to sense mechanical placement of the drawer has broken off.
· Screws are rusty: early units used steel screws before the effects of tropical humidity and salt air were thought about. Replace all top cover screws.
WT-2000S Upgrade:
No common problems.
WT2000 CD Transport: The WT2000 had an early version of the P-2 CD mechanism, which was the top of the line from TEAC/Esoteric at that time. The unit was later upgraded with the P-2S platter and motor assembly. The WT-2000 was essentially an Esoteric P-2 with a Wadia chassis and a Wadia Power supply. There was also a Wadia designed output board that was the first unit to utilize ST glass fiber output. Big and sturdy, but with many sharp edges, so it scratches or silvers easily. Be very careful when reinstalling the top cover – the metal under the top cover is very thin and strips easily!
Common Problems:
· Will not read CDs or skips: the spindle may be bent. Remove the top cover and spin the platter with your finger. If it has a serious wobble from side to side, the platter assembly may need to be replaced. Try a new laser pick-up first to make sure the pickup hasn’t simply become weak. As far as I know, the P-2 platter assembly is no longer available, so customer would have to upgrade to the P-2S.
· Will not read CDs or skips: laser may be weak or needs adjusting. Adjustment instructions are in the W7 Service Manual. Lock the laser in the rest position and close the drawer – if the lens does not move up and down three times or if there is no red light coming from the lens (look at an angle, not directly at it!), it’s dead. It uses a Sony KSS-151A, available from either TEAC or AXISS.
· Will not read CDs or skips: the bearing cap is worn. Remove the three screws that secure the white bearing cap on top of the bridge assembly. If a pit has been worn in the center where the spindle presses against the underside, it needs to be replaced. The pickup assembly should be readjusted after replacing.
· Will not read CDs or skips: the laser bearing shaft needs to be cleaned and lubricated. Remove the laser pickup and the polished laser bearing shaft that it glides on. Clean the shaft with acetone and reinstall the assembly. Lubricate it with two drops of Teflon based electronics lubricant (one on either side of the pickup), available in precision applicator tubes from Radio Shack (much cheaper than ordering huge cans of the stuff from Molykote). Move the pickup back and forth a few times to spread the lubricant around evenly along the shaft. (See the W860 Service Manual for a related bulletin.)
· Will not read CDs: There is an IC on the servo board of the unit beneath the mechanism that can short out against the frame of the mechanism if the unit is jarred or if the mechanism is pressed down. The IC must be replaced and then bent sideways so that it will not make contact with the mechanism again.
· Drawer opens and closes by itself or won’t stay open or closed: the optical sensor in the front of the unit near and above the tray opening is misaligned. It needs to be aligned. Instructions are in the W7 Service Manual.
· Drawer opens and closes by itself or won’t stay open or closed: the switch near the rail on one side or the switch near the back of the unit are most likely broken – the little finger that they use to sense mechanical placement of the drawer has broken off.
· Screws are rusty: early units used steel screws before the effects of tropical humidity and salt air were thought about. Replace all top cover screws.
WT-2000S Upgrade:
No common problems.
You don't know if is working "fine".
The laser assy is defective (proved by fact that video freezes) and that might have influence on CD's too. On CD, missing samples are interpolated. Maybe that is the difference that you are hearing - heavy interpolation due to weak CD laser.
You will never know - probably you are not interested to replace the laser ($17 on eBay) and upgrade the firmware (free) in Denon. Normal, if you will repair your Wadia
Anyway, if interested - procedure to check the firmware on Denon:
1. Power the unit off.
2. While pressing together the "Play" and "Open/Close" buttons, press "Power".
3. In the display you will see the Play and Pause symbols.
4. Now, using the remote control, press the "Display" button. Pressing DISPLAY on the remote will show the ESS version.
5. Now, using the remote control, press the "Menu" button. With each press of the button, you will scroll thru the different versions of the the unit. First is the "DRV", followed by the "ESS" and finally the "Panel".
Using the front panel button, power the unit off to return to normal operation.
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Not to get off the subject but my understanding of the 3800's problems are that the video processor IC overheats and that's what causes the video to freeze. the DVD movie audio keeps playing, it just gets stuck on one video frame. so the transport is still reading the DVD but the video processor IC locks up.
I had considered modifying the 3800 as a transport for DSD or multichannel DVD-A playback. but im not so sure its worth it now.
I had considered modifying the 3800 as a transport for DSD or multichannel DVD-A playback. but im not so sure its worth it now.
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