Would a 32bit floating point dac/adc system remove the need for dither? - Page 2 - diyAudio
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Old 2nd May 2012, 09:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Theoretically do. Ever heard of Johnson/thermal noise? Or do you intend to cryo-treat your system but leave it in the cryostat for operation?
Electronic instruments really don't have to be limited by thermal noise.

They can output digital data directly, with any practical bit depth, with valid signal right down to the lowest bit. They can synthesize their notes from coefficients rather than reading digitised samples from memory. The difference between calculating to 16 bit accuracy and calculating to 32 bit float accuracy is a simple matter of CPU horsepower.

Last edited by Don Hills; 2nd May 2012 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 2nd May 2012, 10:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
Really? You will improve the human hearing?
How about the termal noise of the air molecules? You will listen your recordings in a freezer? That limits the "silence" end.
Humar ear also has a threshold of pain (some 130dB SPL).
Both those limits ear performance for music at not more than 22-23 bit of dynamic - in a perfect silent room. Of course, you can consider a jet-engine at 1m as "music" and extend that range to some 24 bit, but that is it...
Then again, for quite a long time amplifiers have been sold with distortion figures decades below what is needed to make the distortion inaudible, so why would marketeers care about the dynamic range of the human auditory system? If due to some technical breakthrough it would become possible to make 300 dB dynamic range audio equipment, there would probably be a market for it, albeit a small one.
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Old 2nd May 2012, 11:32 PM   #13
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Besides, it is not just marketing; as audio signals usually go through more than one piece of equipment, each apparatus has to introduce errors far below the threshold of audibility to prevent audible errors at the end of the chain.

Slightly off-topic: I think this is the biggest fault of subband coding formats like DCC, MP2, MP3, AAC et cetera. Lots of research were done to see what bit rate is needed to make the encoding artifacts inaudible for the average experienced listener after encoding and decoding one and only one time. But what happens when you listen to a news item of which the raw material is sent to the studio as an MP2 or MP3 file, edited, stored in MP2 format on the radio station's harddrive, mixed and then broadcasted as DAB?
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Old 3rd May 2012, 12:05 AM   #14
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You are confused, there is not editing of mp3/mp2 at broadcast/storing. Just in the final stage the audio file is compressed lossy.
Anyway, that is NOT what this discution here is about.

Short story long.... you can add countless bits after the 24-th one, they will be just noise and useless information because our hearing is what it is.
and no, 24 bit doesn't need any dither from the same reason - our hearing is what it is.

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 3rd May 2012 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 01:22 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by DJNUBZ View Post
And yet we are progressing to 32bit.
HP-A8C | 32bit DAC Headphone Amplifier | Fostex

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SONIC_real_one - REAL resolution will improve with time, just as everything else does. Noise will diminish as we make newer and better designs. Musical instruments do have a limited dynamic range, electronic instruments theoretically don't. You sound like one of those people from the 60's who thought that vinyl, stereo and color TV was the end all be all, as we know that was a fallacy. Stop being stuck in the now and use a little bit of imagination.

Where will we be in 2042 audio-wise? At a minimum you can answer that linearly by saying, what has changed since 1982 and project that growth forward. The problem with that is that it doesn't take into account the move to the digital world which changes and grows at an exponential rate. Looking at this graph Click the image to open in full size. you can see we have increased the size of our hard drives by ~ 500,000 times in the past 30 years. In 30 years, as long as moore's law doesn't break down, a hard drive will be ~ 488 Petabytes.

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I am trying to make an argument for us moving away from the universal shortsightedness that has crept into our culture because digital's rapid growth and to start thinking about developing standards that last the test of time. CD is dead, DVD-A and SACD are not going to supplant it, in fact all audio going forward will be digital transfered. MP3 is far from dead but the end is in sight, it has had a good 10 years but it will not have 10 more. FLAC or ALAC will be the next standard, or something that is similarly lossless. I just think that the next format needs to be designed for the future, not for planned obsolescence. As the internet has shown, planned obsolescence works great for the analog world, nothing really ever leaves the digital world.
Compressed content will continue to rule, just for the sake of convenience. Instead of holding higher fidelity versions of content, people will just hold more.

And handheld audio players today are barely hitting 16-bits, even in products with 24-bit codecs. "more quality" is not something you are hearing much about. In fact, things have gone backwards in some regards as people are using phones instead of dedicated players, and the phones are even worse. But everyone is happy carrying one less device

The state of the art codec you linked to is effectively 21 bits. Thus, in the last 25 years, we've added about 5 bits of dynamic range to state of the art. And 99% of the population cannot even hear that improvement. The next 25 years will likely not add another 5 effective bits.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 02:29 AM   #16
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Actually that "state of the art" DAC from above (AK4399) that claims 32 bit resolution, has -105dB THD+N. That is 18 bit real performance, worse performance than others, that, at 24 bit "only", can provide a real 20 bit performance (108-110dB THD+N).
PS: TI has also a 32 bit DAC that performs at the same level of -106dB THD+N (real 18 bit).

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 3rd May 2012 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 05:40 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
You are confused, there is not editing of mp3/mp2 at broadcast/storing. Just in the final stage the audio file is compressed lossy.
Anyway, that is NOT what this discution here is about.
I'm not confused at all. You are describing the "ideal" situation, but at broadcast stations, it is not unusual to store audio files in a lossy compressed format on systems like Dalet. It is also not unusual to use Musicam/MP2 compression to send audio over ISDN or IP links, from reporter to studio for example. And of course DAB broadcasting involves lossy compression, as does sending audio over a low-bit-rate studio to transmitter link to an FM transmitter. Anyway, it is indeed off topic.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 05:59 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by DJNUBZ View Post
What if someone devises a way to compensate for johnson/thermal noise in a circuit in the next 30 years?
I, for myself, like a reasonable amount of thermal noise from my tube amplifier. I also like the surface noise of the LP. And the candy paper noise in an auditorium. Music has nothing to do with them.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 02:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by MarcelvdG View Post
I'm not confused at all. You are describing the "ideal" situation, but at broadcast stations, it is not unusual to store audio files in a lossy compressed format on systems like Dalet. It is also not unusual to use Musicam/MP2 compression to send audio over ISDN or IP links, from reporter to studio for example. And of course DAB broadcasting involves lossy compression, as does sending audio over a low-bit-rate studio to transmitter link to an FM transmitter. Anyway, it is indeed off topic.
Gee, several DJ's here just put their show on an iPod and patch it in.
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Old 3rd May 2012, 03:21 PM   #20
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Resolution, accuracy and linearity are remarkably 'uncoupled' in high resolution data converters. Know your data converters limitations.
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