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SoNic_real_one 5th March 2012 08:23 PM

D&M Holdings crap
D&M Holdings (Denon/Marantz) served a notice of take down of "copyrighted service manuals" to one of my favorites sites that had those manuals up for free (the site links to manuals where vehiculated a lot here).

In other words, D&M thinks that their products should NOT be fixed by DIY, only by their overpriced service reps.
The story is that the japanese headquartes ASKED the US branch to send that threating letter the website in discussion (because was hosted on GoDaddy servers).

This changed drastically my oppinion about their products. I have 3 players and one receiver from Denon in my house. I was planning to buy more of them, but now I won't touch them, just to make a point.
In the end all their precious "copyrighted manuals" will end up on torrents (like Sony's collection of Michael Jackson audio files).

kevinkr 7th March 2012 04:46 PM

You have heard of copyright infringement right? These manuals can usually be purchased from the manufacturer, if not always for an entirely reasonable price. They are entitled to control the distribution of their IP and to get paid for their work

:cop: Posting links to such material here is a violation of forum policy.

SoNic_real_one 7th March 2012 10:40 PM

I am NOT posting links here. I am just disgusted and practice my free speach rights.
Did you ever saw "free schematics" that came with a TV/radio? I am old enough to remember. They used to give those free before the "greed age". It was done to boost the customer confidence in a specific brand.
Something like the datasheets of the components that Denon used to build their products - datasheets that the manufacturers give away FREE! They use US free publications but they claim copyright on the results.
Also, when Denon/Marantz designed those circuits, did they pay any royalty to the countless people that discovered math laws, electricity laws (ohm law, kirchoff law, etc), electronics theory of feedback, filters, Nyquist law, AC transformation and conversion to DC, the guys who invented the paint they use, the treatment of metal and so on?
No, they didn't. Those are ideas that is supposely ok to use for free because... the corporations paid politicians to say so in a law.

For what I care, legally one cannot copyright previous work done by others. So Denon cannot copyright schematics that have major elements that where published previously in TI/AD/BB/NJM datasheets or in any highscool or college electronics manuals. I think 99% of their schematics can be traced to others.
But they have the money and lawyers and politicians working for them.

lcsaszar 8th March 2012 01:53 PM

I try to collect SMs for all pieces of electronics I have at home. Getting a service manual (for free or paid) for the intended purpose (servicing the item) is different from copying or replicating the item, this infringing intellectual properties. In the past you got a SM for every radio and TV set.

SY 8th March 2012 02:14 PM

SRO, your understanding of copyright law is severely flawed. But that's irrelevant- those companies own the copyrights to their manuals. You may not like their choice of how to sell or otherwise distribute their property, but the point is: it's theirs, not yours. "Free speech" has nothing to do with it, this is property rights.

SoNic_real_one 9th March 2012 12:01 AM

How is "their" when 99% of the schematic was published by others previously? For example TI published the PCM1791 schematic and recomended schematic with OpAmp filters before Denon put it in their player. Denon didn't change that. NJR published the OpAmp datasheet for their OpAmps before Denon use them. AD published their Blackfin documentation before was included in Denon products. Their engineers used in design electric laws discovered by others and didn't pay a penny. So on and so forth.
Sure, Denon might choose to show those on a SM, but that doesn't give them the copyright.
If I publish a a book containing the story "Five Weeks in a Balloon" it doesn't make it mine, even if Jules Verne's copyright expired.

The only real "intelectual propriety" is the Alpha processing algorithm. And that is not found in service manual.

I know that they have the lawyers and judges in their pocket. But I can voice my disgust - that was the free speech that I am talking about.

All in all, I am done with them.

SY 9th March 2012 02:03 AM

Their drawings, text, and arrangement are their property. They created it, put it together, and published it. It's theirs, not yours.

By your logic, it's fine to violate the copyrights of college textbooks because all the information in them has been published elsewhere?

SoNic_real_one 9th March 2012 03:17 AM

If the ones that wrote those books just copy the information from somewhere else, there is no "intelectual propriety": :
"(b) The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material."

But that is not the point. The point is that nice people help others. With advices or with schematics. D&M could choose to help DIY instead of harping on those service manuals. DIY brought more publicity and helped manufacturing companies more than billions spend on advertisments.

Extreme_Boky 9th March 2012 06:55 PM

I was wondering what is the Forum policy on including the web-links to personal web-sites by growing number of forum members and moderators. You have one at the bottom of your posts; many others have them too.


SY 9th March 2012 07:10 PM


Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one (
If the ones that wrote those books just copy (sic) the information from somewhere else, there is no "intelectual propriety" (sic)

But that's not what a manual is. Any "copied" (in the copyright sense) information is from other copyrighted documents (e.g., internal documentation, photos) owned by the copyright holder.

Your understanding of copyright seems to be quite flawed, but thanks for the link.

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