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Old 26th December 2011, 04:39 PM   #1
mjz3348 is offline mjz3348  United States
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Default Comparison: SACD & 24/192hz

Is there a "sonic" difference between SACD DSD sampling and sound quality and the PCM 24/192hz (or 24/96hz) quality?
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Old 26th December 2011, 05:22 PM   #2
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First of all - all the existing DAC cips have better performance with PCM at 96kHz rather than 192kHz. There is no need in reproduction domain for 192kHz - that might be usefull in recording, studio processing.

I have players that can play SACD (DSD) nativelly and I like the sound a lot I prefer to switch the otput filter to slow roll-off 50kHz. To me sounds closer to analog LP/reel-to-reel reproduction, but without the noise and lower distortion.
I have several DVD-A at 96kHz also and it's hard to say which one is better - the mastering process is already more important at this level.

Personally I prefer SACD because I think quality of mastering is usually better, being a format dedicated primarily to a audience that is critical with the sound quality. DVD-A was pushed more like another "DVD" format and quality was not always the best.

Bluray audio, with a few exceptions (Tom Petty), is oriented towards pop-corn eater, movie watcher public. Lots of hype for nothing.

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 26th December 2011 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 26th December 2011, 07:09 PM   #3
jcx is online now jcx  United States
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technically 96k PCM could be better

SACD noise shaping gives +6dB, ~1 MHz noise peak - needs heavy filtering, 6th order or more

the original 100 kHz fc rec from Sony reputedly destroyed some high end amps at shows from the high level of shaped noise

now Sony recommends 50 KHz fc low pass for reconstructing SACD DSD - little better than 96 ks/s PCM

and 24 bits is better than SACD res throughout an extended def of "audio frequency"

not that the bits really mean that much in home reproduction - but way handy in mastering/processing
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Old 26th December 2011, 08:01 PM   #4
mjz3348 is offline mjz3348  United States
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I like SACD a great deal. I have a Marantz SA-11S1 that does a fantastic job.
But SACD's can not be downloaded to a hard drive (as far as I know). So I am looking for the next best thing that is close enough to SACD for computer storage and playback.
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Old 26th December 2011, 08:11 PM   #5
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Hi SoNic-real_one
I read that you have some DVD-A with 96/24. Will you tell the titels of
that DVD's? I'am very interested.
zjaakco
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Old 26th December 2011, 10:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
and 24 bits is better than SACD res throughout an extended def of "audio frequency"
As I said in the second post, there is no DAC today that can have a real analog range of 24 bit. They all in the 20-22 bit range. Also, for human hearing the 20-22 bit seems to be an absolute limit. More "resolution" in the medium frequency range, less in low and especially in the high domain. In the domain over 20kHz, human hearing has a absolute dynamic resolution of only a few bits (look at the curves of "equal hearing" and you will see the dynamic range for different freq), so DSD is perfect for that, regardless what PCM claims.

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 26th December 2011 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 26th December 2011, 11:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjz3348 View Post
But SACD's can not be downloaded to a hard drive (as far as I know).
Yes they can:
sacd-ripper - SACD ripping software using a PS3 - Google Project Hosting

Native DSD playback is then the problem, but the appropriate playback software, DAC hardware, and drivers are starting to become available. DIY: exaDevices. Off-the-shelf: dCS, Mytek.
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Old 26th December 2011, 11:45 PM   #8
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Situation is like this:
Some SACD players will NOT play a burned SACD disc (SACD-R) because is missing the watermark. Even if the source of the files is clear DSD, not from an ecrypted SACD.
Some SACD players have bugs in firmware and they ignore the watermark (or lack of) on SACD discs. The list is in the link above.
If the DSD files are on HDD, foobar2000 has a DSD decoder that can be added and will play those files via PC soundcard - of course, converted to PCM.
For free test files that can be used for comparations, you can look here (scroll down):
http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 26th December 2011 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 26th December 2011, 11:52 PM   #9
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Most audio SACD players will not recognize Sony PS3 ripped DSD disks.

Most video DVD players with SACD support will be OK however they are downsampling DSD to PCM.

Mathematically SACD bitstream requires less interpolation then PCM 192KHz.

EMM Labs are known among audiophiles as a solid manufacture of SACD transports-DACs.
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Old 27th December 2011, 01:04 AM   #10
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No, all of the decent Universal DVD players have a dedicated chip for SACD and DAC's that accept directly that format.
I have players (Denon) with Sony and players (Toshiba) with Phillips SACD chips. Both followed by BB DAC's that accept DSD.
As for the list, it is in the link posted above.

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 27th December 2011 at 01:07 AM.
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