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Old 27th December 2011, 03:48 AM   #11
Wombat is offline Wombat  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjz3348 View Post
Is there a "sonic" difference between SACD DSD sampling and sound quality and the PCM 24/192hz (or 24/96hz) quality?
One of the things you can discuss in an endless-loop without a real outcome but i may add some thoughts.

Always keep in mind that you can easily recreate the complete signal response including the huge amounts of DSD dithering noise with a PCM signal but not the other way around.

DSD is very limited by noise-shaping garbage and must be a pita to master because there is nearly no possibility to apply any effects natively. The DSD you think to hear so great on so many recordings most likely for this reason alone was PCM at one point.

I did read the most fascinating reviews about the superior sound of some SACDs at SA-CD.net for example when people write "This is my favotite showcasing SACD" and in reality when analysing the output youŽll see there is no fart above 20Khz and somwhere in the fine print it claims "20-bit" remaster!
Imho the decision to sell SACDs to us is strongly related to its superior copy protection.

In the end the quality comes from carefull mastering, no matter what format. At this high data-rates and bandwiths humans donŽt have a chance to hear the limits, only limitations and variations in the designs of some playback gear.
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Old 27th December 2011, 05:43 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Wombat View Post
DSD is very limited by noise-shaping garbage
"Garbage" that you listen EVERY time you listen a modern DAC. They all relay on the same delta-sigma principle and same noise-shaping. Every record that you listen has originated in a delta-sigma ADC similar with the DSD "garbage".
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Old 27th December 2011, 10:10 AM   #13
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IMHO in order to understand DSP solid mathematical background is required so no wonder why there is so many all kind of rumors around.

Mathematically reel-to-reel or LP are the best because of infinite sample rate - analog sound means no interpolation occurs at all during playback. However analog is so tough for modern industry except some advanced audiophile labels like Tacet.

Interpolation is guessing literally that what all digital sources are suffering from.

DSD is very good because of MHz sample rates but very limited gear can handle true DSD->analog conversion (because of MHz) as well some advanced amplification stuff and better planar or ESL speakers are required to hear the benefit. So most HiEnd gear owners are saying SACD is sonically better and most LowEnd gear users prefer PCM & both are right regarding personal experience.

Actually Red Book PCM 1644 also very good but very few DACs can reveal all potential of a RedBook recording (Wadia, dSC).

AFAIK ICs are very limited in DSP area but low cost. Advanced DACs are powered by sound processor which is obviously a way more powerful devices from mathematical algorithms they can handle point of view.

BTW what I understand form TI datasheet for an IC used in DENON video players it has DSD interface but let data stream go through low pass FIR in advance and later on oversamples it as well as PCM.
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Old 27th December 2011, 12:10 PM   #14
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[QUOTE=SoNic_real_one;2835079]They all in the 20-22 bit range./QUOTE]

You're being optimistic.
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Old 27th December 2011, 02:28 PM   #15
Wombat is offline Wombat  Germany
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Oh boys, there are so many wrong and unfounded statements into only 2 small pages it already makes no sense to discuss any further. CU
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Old 27th December 2011, 02:37 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by suntechnik View Post
BTW what I understand form TI datasheet for an IC used in DENON video players it has DSD interface but let data stream go through low pass FIR in advance and later on oversamples it as well as PCM.
All the TI DAC's can bypass internally the OS section - in the external filter mode and in the DSD mode. Actually Denon uses a DSP as external filter for PCM signals, so in their players, the DAC has always the OS disabled.
As for the FIR, it is done analog, not digital (so no need to go via PCM):
"The DSD mode provides a low-pass filtering function. The filtering is provided using an analog FIR filter structure."
Plots for the analog FIR's are given and the word ANALOG is everywhere in the DSD section.

WM has a converter from DSD to PCM inside their DAC's (if volume control inside the DAC is desided) but they have also a direct path for DSD to bypass the the delta-sigma modulators needed for PCM. The signal that goes in the actual switched-capacitor DAC is always DSD type (delta-sigma).
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Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 27th December 2011 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 27th December 2011, 03:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Wombat View Post
Oh boys, there are so many wrong and unfounded statements into only 2 small pages it already makes no sense to discuss any further. CU
All right no more discussions just a picture regarding the topic (might be just bs Pyramix marketing however )

Click the image to open in full size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
Actually Denon uses a DSP as external filter for PCM signals, so in their players, the DAC has always the OS disabled.
OK thank you for the explanation. DENON are making very good stuff no dubt.
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Old 27th December 2011, 03:10 PM   #18
Wombat is offline Wombat  Germany
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Originally Posted by suntechnik View Post
All right no more discussions just a picture regarding the topic (might be just bs Pyramix marketing however )
LOL! Marketing, yes indeed. This ugly pre and post echo is always used to impress. Think about how this comes and wonder of what frequencies this ringing consists. They are not audible to you and me and can be much less as this funny pic shows. After all this is a non-issue to how it sounds.
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Old 27th December 2011, 04:10 PM   #19
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The truth is that the DSD sounds exactly like analog LP/reel-to-reel. With less noise and less distortion. I have PCM 96k and it does not sounds the same. Some people don't have that memory, especially if they are part of i-Generation and they grew up with mp3 and ear-buds.

Speaking of "unfounded claims", for some people if the ringing and slow step response is done by PCM, is not audible. If is done by DSD is "garbage".
Wombat, if you have something constructiv to add, please do. LOL does not count as inteligent response in my opinion.

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 27th December 2011 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 27th December 2011, 04:16 PM   #20
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suntechnik View Post
All right no more discussions just a picture regarding the topic (might be just bs Pyramix marketing however )
It is indeed. I'd love to see an analog system that was prospective and had essentially infinite bandwidth. Their sampling theorem violation is a red flag that we're talking marketing, not technical.
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