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Old 4th November 2011, 05:08 PM   #21
ozzyscl is offline ozzyscl  United Kingdom
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Hello guys, it seems there's no definitive answer to the problem, I'll answer a few questions first.

I burned the cd's as "audio cd" using Nero 10, and According to what I understand the software encodes everything into 44.1 (I confirmed this by connecting cd cd player to the dacmagic and checking the sample rate)

It might be that the laser is on its last legs... but then it read really fast and jumps back and forth without problems. (but then again, that might not mean much)

I have burned (as test yesterday) few cd's Genesis Foxtrot being only 6 tracks and about 39 minutes didn't play when burned with burn xp, but it worked with Nero and "cd at once/96) some other cd's didn't work using Nero and cd at once.

As a test I burned The Beatles Revolver and U.S. Hits (running time of about 77 minutes, I erased Eleanor Rigby and Yellow Submarine from Hits as is on Revolver and with those I exceeded 80 minutes). Again I used Nero disc at once/96 and it works, it read every track, it only strugles at track 15, but it might have been a problem with the file. As I haven't check that rip completely.

I've read about cd reflection and that makes sense, that's one of the reason why people recommends Taiyo Yuden Cd's. Which to what I've seen in Photos reflect more light.

As seen here
Click the image to open in full size.

Compared to an Aluminium based cd (not the blue one)

Click the image to open in full size.

I've read as well that apparently cd players struggle a bit reading cd-r's due to the lack of being reflected. If so, do you guys think that a "silver cd" (like the TDK's) would shorten the laser's life, compared to a gold one? as the Taiyo Yuden?

As a side note, I tried a cd that a friend of mine burned for me on 1998 (my first burned cd hehe) it's a blue one and it played without problems!

I'm starting to think there's something to do with the amount of light reflected rather than speed, as I don't think he went to the trouble of burning at 4x or less when he did it.
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Old 4th November 2011, 05:10 PM   #22
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I can say from very recent, direct experience doing service on a 605ESD, which uses exactly the same laser/mech as the 555ESD, that it should have no trouble playing any CD-R discs, IF it is properly adjusted/aligned. These lasers don't usually develop laser power output "sag", but that is possible, rather most often simply need proper adjustment of the focus bias & focus/tracking gains, which are not often ideally done at factory.
When I finished work on this last 605ESD, it had no trouble playing even Memorex & Philips cd-r's, which are the worst I have on hand, in terms of reflectivity(eye pattern amplitude). I see the best reflectivity from Sony, Maxell and TDK. I don't trust Verbatim(horrid QC), and the Memores are by far the worst I've personally tried.
The CD-RW discs require, AFAIK, a different wavelength laser than standard, and quite a lot of cd players for the first maybe five years after the format came out were designed to play them. Mostly it's just dvd/cd players that can play them nowadays.
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Old 4th November 2011, 05:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lduarte1973 View Post
I agree i had a sony cpd from 1994 always read cd´r fine but when laser got older it stoped reading the some cd´r , untill one day only accepted original cd´s and died after 2 months.

the laser of your cd player is probably falling.try align it , but it will fail eventualy in a year or so.
try burning some good quality cd´s like TDK , if that doesn´t work there´s a small screw near the laser (in my sony it was in white plastic ) rotate gently and try with your cdr and original cd´s. But i´m almost sure that laser is near the end of it´s lifetime.

Last edited by lduarte1973; 4th November 2011 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 4th November 2011, 08:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsdio View Post
Sorry, but I have the original red book standard in my hands.
It is called "red book"? Because I know of only two of them and none of them has "red book" as title: IEC 60908 (published in 1987) and IEC 60908 second edition (published in 1999).
And no, I don't have 300USD to waste on it, just to prove that I am right. Everywhere on web is stated that 74 minutes where the original 1987 standard and the standard got changed in 1999 to some 80minutes. Overburning achieve exactly that, extending the spiral to the edge of the disc where wasn't supposed to be...

If you belive different, so be it.

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 4th November 2011 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 4th November 2011, 09:04 PM   #25
SY is offline SY  United States
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Red Book well predates that. Originally 1980. The max time is given there (and in the IEC standards) as 79:48.
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Old 4th November 2011, 09:49 PM   #26
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CD's and CD-R's vary in reflectivity... a lot. The RF measure point can be used to check this.

I routinely adjust the laser output power to get marginal CD players again in to rock-solid, reliable "area". I have a reference, very high reflectivity CD and a reference, very low reflectivity disk that I use to correctly adjust laser output. Some laser mechanisms work with sony “chipsets”; some with sanyo and some with Philips…. They all have different needs, different RF measuring point level’ adjustment.

The industry doesn't care about standards - I found CD's (the original music CD's bought in shops) to have huge variation in reflectivity as well.

The sanyo mechanism / servo combination usually requires RF amplitude of 1.5V pp + and – 0.3 V. If a disk with low reflectivity media gives <1.2V pp (which is very common with un-adjusted laser output), the player will read those disks intermittently…. it will fail to read them completely most of the time.

Boky

edit: pdf attached
Attached Files
File Type: pdf RF adjust.pdf (89.1 KB, 30 views)

Last edited by Extreme_Boky; 4th November 2011 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 5th November 2011, 01:40 AM   #27
rsdio is offline rsdio  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
And no, I don't have 300USD to waste on it, just to prove that I am right. Everywhere on web is stated that 74 minutes where the original 1987 standard and the standard got changed in 1999 to some 80minutes. Overburning achieve exactly that, extending the spiral to the edge of the disc where wasn't supposed to be...

If you belive different, so be it.
You realize how silly it sounds to say that you've never seen it, but you're still sure you're right because of what you read on the web. Has anyone ever pointed out that you shouldn't believe everything you read? Did it ever occur to you that none of the people who wrote those web pages have spent the money to look at the document, either? That's what I meant by hearsay.

As SY said, the original is 1980. The maximum is 79:48. That's Red Book audio.

By the way, the document was about $5,000 from Sony/Philips before the IEC standard 7 years later.

Orange Book (CD-R) probably did have a maximum of 74:00 in the beginning, but I don't have that one, just Red Book, Yellow Book, Green Book, and a few more for which I don't even know the nicknames. It's possible that the Orange Book standard started at 74:00 and was extended to 80:00 just like you say, but that's not Red Book CDDA.
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Old 5th November 2011, 04:25 AM   #28
rsdio is offline rsdio  United States
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Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
I don't think the data is formatted any differently on a CD-RW vs CD-R, its purely an inability of the older drive to optically read the even less reflective surface of the CD-RW.

"The CD-RW technology is based on the phase change technology, so the degree of reflection reached is only 15 - 25%,[1] compared to the 40-70% reflection from CD-R discs."
Ah, I should qualify what I meant by "format" - I didn't really mean to imply that the data sent to the drive or read from the drive is any different. What I really meant was that the technology of squeezing that data onto the disk is different. I realize now that its even possible for the same EFM and other optical modulation codings to be used.

I think the fundamental difference is that CDDA is on/off reflect/no-reflect, whereas CD-RW always reflects and instead varies the phase of the reflection.

Originally, especially before CD-R, Audio CD Players were designed as readers for a single technology. On a computer, they started making multi-format hardware that could detect different media and adjust. Technically, these fancy drives should cost more than a single-purpose CDDA player, but prices are so low that I'm sure everything made today is multi-format.

To a single-format, single-technology CD Player, CD-R is damaged goods unless you're really lucky. But these days, I think most modern CD Players are just computer drives in a non-computer product.
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Old 5th November 2011, 05:03 AM   #29
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Responding to Boky's post:
On a Sony laser, it is a risk to the health of the laser to adjust laser power by RF amplitude. To be done safely & properly, it MUST be done with an optical laser power meter. As I said before, though, this particular unit's BU-1E laser is not one that is likely to lose optical power output with age, and likely simply needs proper servo adjustments. These machines can tolerate a fairly enormous range of RF signal amplitude, i.e., disc reflectivity, once things are adjusted properly, as can the majority of players that use Sony lasers & Sony servo chpsets.
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Old 5th November 2011, 09:17 AM   #30
oshifis is offline oshifis  Hungary
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Stephensank,

What about Philips lasers? I am especially interested in the one used in the CDM-1. My experience is that a properly adjusted CDM-1 is able to read most CD-Rs, depending on the media and the burner software. Is there any difference between single-beam and 3-beam lasers?
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