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Old 17th November 2012, 08:10 AM   #271
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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if it has regulator in the battery, its quite noisy, these things are crap. use a battery without any protection or regulation in it, add your own regulator if need be.
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Old 17th November 2012, 09:31 AM   #272
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If battery power is all you wish to experience , please try modifying SONY S790 , it uses only 12v as input to its main board and the switching power supply is only one 12v out , we are already using battery to power this S790 and rarely any noise seen in the picture .

Larry
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Old 17th November 2012, 10:04 AM   #273
marce is online now marce  United Kingdom
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I would expect it to have some on board local supplies, there are very few digital devices that work at 12V these days.
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Old 17th November 2012, 10:19 AM   #274
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There are local regulators in the main board to supply all various voltages required , but one 12v input allows us to replace the 12v switching power supply to 12v power cell easily , Ni-cad (best) , lithium (both closed to 12v) or lead-acid .
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Old 17th November 2012, 03:06 PM   #275
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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In my opinion, powering an whole device/player or so, by battery is not efficient at all. The digital stages inside the machine will produce the same amount of noise as when it should be powered as usually from the wall. Is like one would power a whole computer from battery, and expect to have a very high fidelity in the audio stage because this... Just no way to do like this!
The battery power may be applied there where the noise is very critical for the further stages. As is the case of a oscillator used to clock a system... or the video processor chip, or the DAC chip, and so on... In some cases it may be inefficient to power an whole chip, because of to much current needed, fast discharge rate of the battery, the need of an regulator after that battery, and so on... So, it may be appreciated carefully where is to use battery power and where is not...
Of course is not any reasonable way to use a battery and have after it an electronic regulator... It may be stupid like this, I suppose.
When the device it not need much current, its tension on power is near to the battery used, and the discharge rate of the battery is very slowly, do not alter the device functions and parameters, then is quite easy to make it. It seems that it works very well to power only those clock oscillators from battery, and the rest of the devices as usually from transformers, regulators, etc.
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Old 18th November 2012, 07:09 PM   #276
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Hi Coris
What battery did you use.Presumably one that can be recharged?
Thank for any help.Having touble finding Connor-Winfields in the U.K
Smiffy
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:26 PM   #277
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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you misunderstand, the regulator/limiter in the battery is a switching device, also lion and lipo are higher noise than lifepo4, many have regulators that are in circuit the whole time. also having a post battery regulator is not a bad thing if you make a proper regulator, it still removes ground, which is the main reason to use a battery for a clock IMO
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:50 PM   #278
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiffy View Post
Hi Coris
What battery did you use.Presumably one that can be recharged?
Thank for any help.Having touble finding Connor-Winfields in the U.K
Smiffy
Connor-Winfields you may find at Digikey (UK dept. maybe...) They have lot of such. There is a "problem" with those Connor-Winfields oscillators: ones with very low jitter (0,2 - 1 ps) are made in to the 27Mhz range, and few of those work on low current (max 6mA). The other ones for quite high frequencies do not have similar parameters, and need higher currents (40 - 90mA)... So, is not easy to use only this type to mod accordingly. SAW for high frequency, and this Connor-Winfields for lower (in my case)...
The battery, yes is rechargeable of course. One may not take the battery out to recharge it... The relay used to start up the oscillator will do the job to recharge the battery when the player is off... The rest is only about wires...
I used in this case an 1,6A/h mobile phone battery. But for sure it works any other one. Those made for cellphones are quite small and fit better in place... The higher the capacity, the better working time... When is about low currents, one can use an resistor divider to control more precise the tension and current through the oscillator. When about more needed current, then help only a limiter resistor (which lower the tension too). Calculate and experiment (simulate with resistors) first, before connect the oscillator to the battery.
Nice if you will come back with your impressions and results...
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:58 PM   #279
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
you misunderstand, the regulator/limiter in the battery is a switching device, also lion and lipo are higher noise than lifepo4, many have regulators that are in circuit the whole time. also having a post battery regulator is not a bad thing if you make a proper regulator, it still removes ground, which is the main reason to use a battery for a clock IMO
I also thought at this aspect too... But after I`ve done this experiment, I can say that I have no any problem. The improvements are obviously, no matter that (supposing connected) management circuit. Maybe somebody else can try with another battery cells which do not have such inside... and report the results.
It may be possible that that circuit is not connected to the battery when is not in the phone (it have 4 pins, two for power). That discharge controller may be in the phone, and the battery may include only the informations part... It may be possible that those cellphones battery are not made similar to another ones Li-Ion power battery. It is not very much place in those... This is not very sure for the moment, but in this case it works very well.
Maybe one may do further a better research on this aspect, but at last it works much better with the phone battery as it is, than as with the low noise regulator...

BTW, I did not removed the GND connection from the oscillator. Both the oscillator and the battery are connected to the same GND (clock GND) with the rest of the circuits on that board... The ground is common always, as it should be. For me is quite clear that that extremely low noise which disturb the oscillator/clock, and degrade further the target circuit performances, it came through power rail, not on ground plane.

Last edited by Coris; 18th November 2012 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 19th November 2012, 04:23 PM   #280
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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To clarify this aspect about a possible circuit connected inside a phone battery, maybe someone will want to open a such battery and show the pictures here (to qusp...). I do not have either a good one or defective battery at the moment.
It make more sense to me that such phone batteries connect the eventual chip inside to the phone, when it is inserted/connected in place. If is a chip there then it may be something which measure the temperature, all the rest may be in the phone power system. Those batteries are dedicated to be used in that type of the phone it belong to, and not for something else... Another types of such Li-Ion powerful batteries, which it can be connected to motors, or everything else, are protected with specialised circuits, to prevent damages, explosion, fire, etc.
Is fully unreasonable to have in those phone batteries something which it may draw the energy out when the battery is not connected to the phone. I just had those batteries I use now in Oppo, fully charged over a long time, and the tension level were not changed ever...

I think it may not be necessary more arguments to justify the use of phone batteries for such purposes. They work just fine! But I insist to recommend using of an (pico)fuse in between battery and the rest.

Last edited by Coris; 19th November 2012 at 04:41 PM.
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