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Old 18th September 2012, 09:38 AM   #221
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Hi Coris,

The comments posted here regarding ground planes, loops, an importance of decoupling traces’ impedance and how it affects noise at certain frequency spectrum that needs to be attenuated (removed) from power supply rails at various points around the circuit are all, in fact, credible.

The way those facts were communicated to you could have been better, more respectful… so, try to extract the important bits and then remove the egocentric / free-advertisement components out -> and you’ll be fine.

I haven't seen anyone on these forums in a loooong while who unconditionally and unselfishly shared the findings and results of their hard work with the rest of the forum members, so for that i thank you.

Good luck, keep learning, experimenting and having fun!

Boky
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Old 18th September 2012, 10:33 AM   #222
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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What free advertisments?
As to the rest, my comments were from years of working in teams doing quite high end electronics for a variety of fields, most of the work I do is covered by NDA's and often other resirictions. I do primerily PCB design and when I get home (I am on site in London at the moment) I will find some designs I can show Coris (they will not be posted in public though).
My comments were meant to be constructive, and if they have come across wrong I am sorry. On the plus side you are getting my comments and others for free Which is a 100% discount compared to commercial customers.
Anyway chill and have fun.
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Old 18th September 2012, 02:00 PM   #223
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Hi Boky and merce
I do not argue about PCB way of doing electronic design. It have to be like this, is more convenient for production, and it have many other (huge) advantages. I will not throw away all the concept of PCB design to promote my way... If somebody understood in this way from my comments and posts, then is wrong. In the same time, I presented here another way of doing. This way/technique, have its limitations and is not possible to be used in series of products. But when and where is used it works, and even very well.
merce`s professional/experienced way to comment is for sure to be constructive. The only thing I wondered were that his comments and critic are the only his contribution here and refer to general (known) considerations.
So, to be more practical, what are your comments about those ("in the air") circuits I posted above here? What is wrong and what is positive (if it is...) at the devices build like it showed. What about (f. ex.) impedance, loops, and so on, on one or on all of the circuits to be seen in my earlier post pictures? Your (for free) comments will be appreciated and I think will be like a real contribution to this thread. Thanks!

Last edited by Coris; 18th September 2012 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 18th September 2012, 03:46 PM   #224
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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My concern for in air construction for high speed,
is it is similar to having slotsin your ground planes.
This is not to sy it wont work, but may cause signal integrity problems
and could create EMC noise that may affect other parts of the circuitry (again
this may not be an issue for DIY (for commercial where CE or FCC compliance is
required it is a no no.). These notes may explain better than I have what the possibleproblems could be.
Slots in Ground Planes

http://www.ultracad.com/articles/slots.pdf

Page 8 onwards:
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/scaa082/scaa082.pdf
Marc
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Old 18th September 2012, 06:31 PM   #225
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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OK! I get it. Is right and you are right. But...
In this case the technique I use do not refer to the (very) high speed circuits, or high frequency devices. There is about analogue stage where is about audio spectre frequencies, and maybe a little bit over, say in to few hundred khz. I use to use this method to build very compact and small regulators too. I of course do not use this kind of constructions where is about digital signals, or high frequency. This is just not possible (as you think and say...).
Anyway, the "in the air" construction of electronic circuits it were very expanded in the past, and maybe it is in some area today, when about just very high frequency domain. I do not refer here at the Ghz circuitry used in f. ex. mobile phone. It were an era when the TV tuners circuitry were build (mass production) in the air, discrete components, oscillators and VHF/UHF filters were build in the air. All was closed up in a metal box, and it worked just fine. I know this very well. Today is used another technique to build such f. ex. TV tuners or VHF devices...
As a conclusion, this subject it can be a quite theoretical one and the discussion can be very long and maybe enough sophisticated. The question is now (referring to this thread on mod and improvements for an player) it is to discuss all this here? It seems to me that it come quite out of topic and some other members can be not so happy about... What do you think?
Anyway, many thanks for the material, advices and comments. I (and maybe we here) will be glad to have your advice about one or another practical things which will be developed in this thread.

Last edited by Coris; 18th September 2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 18th September 2012, 09:22 PM   #226
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Some experimental DIY reminds me of 3D Chess. LOL

Cheers, Joe R.
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Old 19th September 2012, 02:52 AM   #227
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I support Coris ,
It is the fast and efficient way to modify existing equipment.
How can we tailor make individual small pcb to the original mainboard?
Coris work simply like point to point soldering , just like old tube gear in the past.
Nothing wrong within audio spectrum.

And please nomore arguing,
DIY need to have fun.....
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Old 19th September 2012, 04:20 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur View Post

I support Coris... It is the fast and efficient way to modify existing equipment.

Coris work simply like point to point soldering

Nothing wrong...

DIY need to have fun.....
Hear, hear !!!

It's the nature of experimentation. On the other hand, manufacturing has different requirements, as it should be.

So solder on, comrades.

Cheers, Joe R.
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Old 19th September 2012, 05:22 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur View Post
I support Coris ,
It is the fast and efficient way to modify existing equipment.
How can we tailor make individual small pcb to the original mainboard?
Coris work simply like point to point soldering , just like old tube gear in the past.
Nothing wrong within audio spectrum.

And please nomore arguing,
DIY need to have fun.....
Audio spectrum ? There is a 125 MHz oscillator there. Don't think that one will think: "OK it is audio so I won't cause problems"

Wishful thinking, support and religion have no hand in electronics. IMO it is wise to "think RF" in audio and keep tracks + loops short an decouple well. Maybe the device operates in the audio band but the cellphone laying on the table in the living room is not.
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Last edited by jean-paul; 19th September 2012 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 19th September 2012, 07:35 AM   #230
Coris is offline Coris  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jean-paul View Post
Audio spectrum ? There is a 125 MHz oscillator there. Don't think that one will think: "OK it is audio so I won't cause problems"

Wishful thinking, support and religion have no hand in electronics. IMO it is wise to "think RF" in audio and keep tracks + loops short an decouple well. Maybe the device operates in the audio band but the cellphone laying on the table in the living room is not.
Do not worry about that 125Mhz. So how it is placed and soldered there, is the best way possible. Much, much better than on the original PCB placement. Its output is at only 2mm far from the input pin of ES9018 and is soldered directly on that pin. The decoupling of that oscillator is made under it directly on the chip tabs, between the V+ and GND. This is not to be seen on that picture. The GND of that oscillator is only 3mm far from the GND clock pin of ESS9018. The power of that oscillator (its own ultra low noise regulator) is few mm far from the its power pin (same GND).

You know something? If you should have a little knowledge about this Oppo player, how this audio board were designed by the Oppo high qualified specialists, you should remark by your self that the original 54Mhz clock oscillator used for ESS9018 were placed in original design at more than 80mm far from the target chips and it feed with clock signal both ESS9018 chips (placed at the middle distance between those DAC chips - see picture). The power and GND of that original oscillator is at almost the same distance far from that oscillator it self. There is a really mess made by Oppo`s electronic designers (engineers). But is a very nice looking board, symmetrical placement of the components, and so on ... Isn`t funny this? And this is is not the only one design fault in this high end player...
What I said earlier about "connaisseurs" is not just by chance... Unfortunately.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg original board.jpg (410.3 KB, 243 views)

Last edited by Coris; 19th September 2012 at 07:57 AM.
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