Keep chasing them demons...In precious posts I mentioned using signal integrity simulation, you ought to think about what that is for, and before you all start harping on about simulation, it works, it works very well, and shock horror, I also model scope probes so that we can see what the wave will look like when you load it with a scope (what you see with a scope is a distorion of the real wave, due to scope probe loading) so surprise when engineering an interface it is looked at....so know I do not agree with your statement, if that effect happens it is due to it probably being broken or
2 points: just crap.
1. Why use cheep and chearful if you are after audio nirvana, dosn't compute.
2. If you are after audio nirvana, dont use cheep and ceharful products.
We are on about the ethernet interface, how many ethernet interfaces have you laid out, both on expensive gear and cheep and cheerful gear... They are laid out the same, that is how it works, with anything people wanna plug in, as to the magnetics and high frequecny, how high do you wanna go, think of the spectral content of the ethernet signals....
Scott6113, got a pallet full, will do you a deal, you could be my USA distributor
A little confusion here, I'm not saying that the scope changes the behaviour; rather, that a storage scope would record a certain pattern of electrical behaviour over a set time period, on the receiver end, with the transmission path in one configuration; and then changing that configuration, and rerunning the transmission and recording in an identical manner would yield a different pattern of electrical activity. Which alters the interference "signature" ...
You don't have to convince me about simulation, I've gone through 3 packages, over a period of well over a decade, and they've helped me enormously to understand how the interference mechanisms can occur, and to design workarounds ...
Frank
You don't have to convince me about simulation, I've gone through 3 packages, over a period of well over a decade, and they've helped me enormously to understand how the interference mechanisms can occur, and to design workarounds ...
Frank
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When you get data rather than repetitive handwaves, then it's worth responding.
I agree that "real" data, as in numbers, would be very useful ... trouble is I'm not really in a position to acquire that easily myself at the moment.
A program like Diffmaker I would have thought would be an excellent starting point, I've noted its existence a few times. However, I just looked around a bit more, and this evaluation of the program is not very encouraging: Tests with Audio Diffmaker. This implies that the program is weak in the very areas where it needs to be most sensitive -- analysis of high frequency changes. Anyone aware of countering opinions or evaluations?
Or other tools that would do the job? If all else fails I might have a go at developing something myself, would be an interesting exercise ...
In the meantime I might rely on my ears, they've done an excellent job so far in keeping me on track ...
Frank
A program like Diffmaker I would have thought would be an excellent starting point, I've noted its existence a few times. However, I just looked around a bit more, and this evaluation of the program is not very encouraging: Tests with Audio Diffmaker. This implies that the program is weak in the very areas where it needs to be most sensitive -- analysis of high frequency changes. Anyone aware of countering opinions or evaluations?
Or other tools that would do the job? If all else fails I might have a go at developing something myself, would be an interesting exercise ...
In the meantime I might rely on my ears, they've done an excellent job so far in keeping me on track ...
Frank
expect sb. like your thinking only mislead to the wrong way.
so, how come to correct crap here from stubborn "engineer" like you(if you are)?
while you do not have the equipments nor well trained ears, how come you could tell the diffference between different network cables...
one of our customers has a 8G spectroanalyzer, jitter tester, ap ...... and still couldnot find a way out...
ears are the only equipment @ this moment while the theory is not fully covered.
Done plenty of boards with xilinx and power PC for plenty of applications.
If you think that network cables sound different you are wrong wrong wrong wrong, so wrong I cant put it into words, unless you are using wet cotton as your conductor....
I would suggest you go read up on the ethernet interface there is plenty of info out there. Being doing layout for ethernet since 10BASE2.
You quote what others say about it, tell me in your own words how these cables can make a difference to the final sound, ignore noise because in this instance its a red herring.
If you think that network cables sound different you are wrong wrong wrong wrong, so wrong I cant put it into words, unless you are using wet cotton as your conductor....
I would suggest you go read up on the ethernet interface there is plenty of info out there. Being doing layout for ethernet since 10BASE2.
You quote what others say about it, tell me in your own words how these cables can make a difference to the final sound, ignore noise because in this instance its a red herring.
Martin Colloms published results of network cable tests in HiFi Critic Vol. 6 No.1.
Cat 6 was preferred to Cat.5e for sound quality.
Of course something like that is impossible isn't it ?
Differences in sound between USB cables that aren't faulty or don't meet published specifications is impossible too , isn't it ?
BTW, what equipment do YOU use for listening ?
I can't remember you saying anything about that aspect.
If Ethernet cable 'quality' affects sound then there is something seriously wrong with the equipment. All the Ethernet is doing is trying to deliver a bag of bytes. It makes no promise that it will actually deliver them, or when it will deliver them. It is a long time since I developed network software so I can't remember the longest possible backoff/retransmission period, but I seem to recall it could run to a few seconds. It does make a fairly reliable promise that, if delivered, they will be undamaged. All matters of timing at the DAC are a matter for the receiving unit. The Ethernet plays no part in that. The receiver must use a large buffer if it wants to handle real-time audio.
On a short run, with nothing else connected, it is likely that there will be no collisions and that all packets will arrive with intact checksum. Cable quality, unless dire, will play no part in this.
I don't know the details of USB, but I would expect it to be similar.
If you had rubbish cable and a tiny buffer, then you would get audio problems.
On a short run, with nothing else connected, it is likely that there will be no collisions and that all packets will arrive with intact checksum. Cable quality, unless dire, will play no part in this.
I don't know the details of USB, but I would expect it to be similar.
If you had rubbish cable and a tiny buffer, then you would get audio problems.
Ha Ha Ha
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/106911-curvy-chang-thread-9.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/106911-curvy-chang-thread-36.html
#359
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/106911-curvy-chang-thread-37.html
#336
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ge-speaker-photo-gallery-190.html#post2847520
#1895
Amps, dependand on mood
Single ended Class A El34 valve amps, audiolab 8000a
Source stand alone PC for logitech music server and a couple of Squeezebox's and a Behringer active crossover for the OB's, valve for mid top, solid state for woofers, Pro-ject Genie record deck and an Technics tape deck.
Also throwing around in bedrooms etc a CD63 special, some Tanoy near field active monitors, and other bits and bats that the kids keep pinching.
My ears actually and ...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/106911-curvy-chang-thread-9.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/106911-curvy-chang-thread-36.html
#359
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/106911-curvy-chang-thread-37.html
#336
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ge-speaker-photo-gallery-190.html#post2847520
#1895
Amps, dependand on mood
Single ended Class A El34 valve amps, audiolab 8000a
Source stand alone PC for logitech music server and a couple of Squeezebox's and a Behringer active crossover for the OB's, valve for mid top, solid state for woofers, Pro-ject Genie record deck and an Technics tape deck.
Also throwing around in bedrooms etc a CD63 special, some Tanoy near field active monitors, and other bits and bats that the kids keep pinching.
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Sorry, I'm confused. What has marce's audio setup got to do with how Ethernet works? I'm sure this was not an attempt to show that he is deaf or listens to an old Dansette so his views can be ignored, because that would be silly and childish.
I have had a quick look at USB. It has similarities to Ethernet, and differences. The main similarity for our purposes is that neither convey any timing information, therefore neither can corrupt timing information. USB is somewhat more likely to corrupt the data, as it only uses a 16-bit CRC vs Ethernet's 32-bit CRC. One could almost regard USB as a toy form of Ethernet. A higher level protocol could add more USB error checking, if needed.
I have had a quick look at USB. It has similarities to Ethernet, and differences. The main similarity for our purposes is that neither convey any timing information, therefore neither can corrupt timing information. USB is somewhat more likely to corrupt the data, as it only uses a 16-bit CRC vs Ethernet's 32-bit CRC. One could almost regard USB as a toy form of Ethernet. A higher level protocol could add more USB error checking, if needed.
FWIW, my music comes by way of a MyBook Live, hacked to have Squeezebox Server running on it. It is an ethernet device. The music goes through Cat-5 and a hub to a Squeezebox Touch. The hub can have other traffic. I have even ripped a CD from the PC to the MyBook through that hub while listening to music. The SBT PCM goes to the Rega DAC and out to the sound system.
I have never had an interruption in the stream, music dropout, nothing. Things must be cached sufficiently in these items to compensate for the contention scheme of ethernet and the inevitable collisions. It surprised me. I was prepared to isolate the music function from the rest of the network, but it proved unnecessary.
Note that the music is always through hard wires: not wifi or bluetooth.
Digital transmission stuff is pretty good with ordinary-priced good, but not audiophile expense items.
I have never had an interruption in the stream, music dropout, nothing. Things must be cached sufficiently in these items to compensate for the contention scheme of ethernet and the inevitable collisions. It surprised me. I was prepared to isolate the music function from the rest of the network, but it proved unnecessary.
Note that the music is always through hard wires: not wifi or bluetooth.
Digital transmission stuff is pretty good with ordinary-priced good, but not audiophile expense items.
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