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Old 16th February 2013, 04:00 PM   #111
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Studio equipment manufacturers are not entirely free from audiophile nonsense. You can buy stuff with a few valves sprinkled in (probably badly biased) to add 'tube warmth'.

By 'professional audio people' I did not mean people who make or use studio equipment but anyone who makes money from any aspect of audio: manufacturers, retailers, authors, journalists, consultants.
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Old 16th February 2013, 04:10 PM   #112
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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ahh yes that old technique, calling in armies of anonymous professionals to aid your rapidly fading credibility. sorry but said professional designers would be finding this as ridiculous as us, perhaps moreso.

how do you suppose this works properly to produce movie sound tracks for Hans Zimmer?

do remember, we are not talking about a room full of spdif devices, some on wordclock, some on USB, some on Spdif and synchronization issues, even that would again be erroneous application, since the above is quite possible
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Last edited by qusp; 16th February 2013 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 16th February 2013, 11:25 PM   #113
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandyK View Post
And the Objective side doesn't suffer from "expectation bias" ?
Pigs might fly!!! They are far more likely to be affected by expectation bias due to their training. Many believe that they can look at their test equipment, and know EXACTLY how something is going to sound.
The scientists believe in "magic" too, you know, . Get an impressive looking test instrument, add a stick on label that overlays whatever brand is there, that proclaims AP, Tektronix, HP, etc, and pixie dust is in the air. The wise have spoken when a result is flashed up, the measurements are indisputable, "truth" is in the room ...

Of course, there is no such thing as a faulty bit of machinery, or poor testing technique; being in the cathedral and close to the high priests always guarantees that all is well ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 16th February 2013 at 11:36 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 16th February 2013, 11:34 PM   #114
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
As I said, same bits plus same timing means same sound.
Hmmm ... case A: really crap, low end power supply feeding DAC, no RFI issues considered - case B: superbly engineered interference resistance -- glad to know those same bits are going to protect me from any sound issues ...

Frank
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Old 17th February 2013, 06:32 AM   #115
gk7 is offline gk7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
...
Of course, there is no such thing as a faulty bit of machinery, or poor testing technique; being in the cathedral and close to the high priests always guarantees that all is well ...

Frank
Frank you are mixing up physical properties with mathematics. If eg. two files
have the same checksum they are identical by definition. You donīt have
to "prove" or "measure" (with limited resolution) that 1+1=2.
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Old 17th February 2013, 07:54 AM   #116
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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SandyK, the USB cable has been discussed before in the past, possible sound differences could be down to noise transfered from one system to another, bit transfer should be correct if the cable is engineered for the job, I think that discussion is and has been looked at on other threads.
Powerpan, I asked what benefits you think teflon PCBs are going to provide over FR4 based PCBs for these frequencies, and are there any other aspects of PCB design in realtion to digital signals you think will affect sound?

Quote:
Hmmm ... case A: really crap, low end power supply feeding DAC, no RFI issues considered - case B: superbly engineered interference resistance -- glad to know those same bits are going to protect me from any sound issues ...
Same a SandyK and USB cables you are bringing two factors to the argument, noise is a different problem to bit transfer. Your fist point of a low end power supply! why If you want to engineer the best repreduction would you use a crap power supply, that is bad engineering as the power supply is the most critical part of the system. Secondly how much of a problem do you think RF is and how much comes from your power supply, it is a sweeping statement again often used, but with no measured data, and when it comes to RF you have to measure so you know whether you have a problem, what the frequency range is if there is a problem and finaly how to engineer a solution.
Generaly people who use measurements, physics and good engineering practice dont generaly believe in pixie dust, we have hard core audiophiles for that
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Fas42, two points, you cannot design any equipement without measurments and the tools to perform those measurements, yes you have to listen if its audio based, look if it is picture based etc, but contary to what some gurus would have us believe, you cant design by ear alone. I think some loose touch with the fact that audio equipement designs is like any other branch of electronics it is engineering, some seem to forget this (or like to create a mystique) thinking they are a Stradivari creating an instrument, they are not they are engineers (you would hope, though wonder some times) creating some electronics to provide the best fidelity in playback equipement.
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Old 17th February 2013, 08:34 AM   #117
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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You listen to the result to see if there is some large factor you havent measured for, or have measured incorrectly; that is audibly abhorrent. you also listen to see if the compromises you have made were the right ones, or to see if you need to change the focus of your measurements. you dont listen to see if there is something you have measured successfully to not be there that you can hear.

then also you can listen to relax and be happy with what you have created.

all of that is off topic completely and bares no relation whatsoever to bit perfectness, if its bit-perfect, its bit-perfect, there is no grey area... you dont have 'a little bit-perfect'
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Old 17th February 2013, 09:17 AM   #118
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gk7 View Post
Frank you are mixing up physical properties with mathematics. If eg. two files
have the same checksum they are identical by definition. You donīt have
to "prove" or "measure" (with limited resolution) that 1+1=2.
They are identical within themselves, but it's impossible for them to be identical in spatial and temporal senses, otherwise they are the one and same file in every sense.

In other words, the fact that they are stored in different locations means that there is a different pattern of electrical activity when they are replayed. And the fact that one is played after the other "changes things". This might seem all terribly subtle, but I've dealt with headaches along these lines over many years; the physics of everything does come into it, unfortunately ...

Frank
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Old 17th February 2013, 09:28 AM   #119
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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True
It is also rare these days to have any problems with data, even with complex 3D models in Solidworks, 30M size photos, large PCB files, and often having more than one CAD package open at a time, I cant remember when I last had a crash or any file go wrong! And audio data is not that taxing for a PC these days, the technology has moved on in leaps and bounds since the conception of red book audio.
One reason why so many like to use the smoke screen that digital is analogue, it allows analogue problems to attributed to digital signals, to give rise to incorrect beliefs that noise can be transfered and recorded onto a digital signal as it passes throughy the replay network. Low level broadband noise!
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Old 17th February 2013, 09:31 AM   #120
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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lets say for arguments sake that you are correct, it still has nothing to do with the file, nothing at all; it would have everything to do with the playback mechanism.

I repeat, it has nothing at all to do with the file, or 'energy' stored within the file, just as the 'energy' that transmits the file does not directly relate to the playback of the file. what matters to the playback is the data represented by the file, which is identical in both cases. the only possible difference would be the impossibly small subatomic difference in the playback mechanism at the 2 different times

but can we leave out the metaphysical codswhollop? its crap like this that quite rightly makes reasonable people think audiophiles are insane, as more problems are solved with the technology and diagnostics allow us to see more and more clearly into the mechanisms at play, more and more dubious and elaborate excuses are made for there being differences where there are none.

Last edited by qusp; 17th February 2013 at 09:34 AM.
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