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Old 29th December 2010, 08:26 PM   #1
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Default CD player replacement-any good DVD?

Unfortunately, my old Technics SL-MC4 is dying. So, I looked around for replacement, probably DVD, with good DAC, more than 3 buttons on the front panel (not just stop, play and pause, but FF and FB also) and internal display, that can show some navigation through directories. And I could not find any. There were some interesting models from Panasonic and Pioneer some time ago, but they all seem to be discontinued.
I would like to stay within $100 and get a decent audio quality.
Is it possible?
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Old 29th December 2010, 08:48 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by begemot61 View Post
I would like to stay within $100 and get a decent audio quality.
Is it possible?
No

The clock architecture of multiplayers is such that the audio clock jitter is horrible to get decent sound quality.

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Old 29th December 2010, 08:54 PM   #3
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It sure would be nice to have a display that at least showed a 'calendar' of tracks, but even this seems asking too much. And are companies even making new DVD players now that Blu-Ray is taking hold?

This doesn't fill your requirements, but I'm thinking of getting the new Panasonic DMP-BD65K (~$120) which can also stream Netflix, then doing the easy PS and analog audio output op amp upgrades, and see where that gets me. If it is still not great, then I'd have an excuse to build a DAC kit....
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Old 29th December 2010, 10:14 PM   #4
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Panasonic is probably a good choice for home theatre. Good overall product + Netflix. But just for sound? And very few controls on front panel. It is not so convenient for stand alone sound player.
What do you think of Pioneer Dv610av-k.
DVDA and SACD are nice features. It would be interesting to figure-out, what DAC is used in this Pioneer.

Speaking about clock architecture, do you mean PLL?
What's the problem to design low noise PLL? Or it's just the fact that manufactures are not paying attention to it? Do you have data for jitter in those players?
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Old 30th December 2010, 07:54 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by begemot61 View Post

Speaking about clock architecture, do you mean PLL?
What's the problem to design low noise PLL? Or it's just the fact that manufactures are not paying attention to it? Do you have data for jitter in those players?
DVD players have a 27 MHz master clock for video. Silicon based synthesizers derive audio clocks. These do jitter, way too much. A secondary PLL using a crystal based voltage controlled oscillator solves the problem. But it will raise the price consistently. Unfortunately, these architectures have become an industry standard hence also expensive DVD players suffer from similar problems.

Conclusion: If you want decent audio playback, stay away from multi-players. An alternative could be the use of a decent exetrnal DAC: One that is designed with high jitter immunity.

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Old 30th December 2010, 04:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Guido Tent View Post
DVD players have a 27 MHz master clock for video. Silicon based synthesizers derive audio clocks. These do jitter, way too much. A secondary PLL using a crystal based voltage controlled oscillator solves the problem. But it will raise the price consistently. Unfortunately, these architectures have become an industry standard hence also expensive DVD players suffer from similar problems.

Conclusion: If you want decent audio playback, stay away from multi-players. An alternative could be the use of a decent exetrnal DAC: One that is designed with high jitter immunity.

best
Thanks for explanation. So, as a possible upgrade, external DAC with good clock recovery. Are there any data for jitter requirements to be met? I mean, some blind testing, showing hearing limits of jitter? This may be DAC related, but at least some data to set the reasonable target.
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Old 30th December 2010, 05:04 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by begemot61 View Post
Thanks for explanation. So, as a possible upgrade, external DAC with good clock recovery. Are there any data for jitter requirements to be met? I mean, some blind testing, showing hearing limits of jitter? This may be DAC related, but at least some data to set the reasonable target.
We are around 1ps (>10Hz) and still notice improvements when going below 1ps. These figures are seldomly met by normal equipment, let alone gear with price tags of 100 euro.

If you are looking for "cheap" but decent playback, look at an NAD C541 for example.

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Old 30th December 2010, 05:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by begemot61 View Post
Thanks for explanation. So, as a possible upgrade, external DAC with good clock recovery. Are there any data for jitter requirements to be met? I mean, some blind testing, showing hearing limits of jitter? This may be DAC related, but at least some data to set the reasonable target.
We are around 1ps (>10Hz) and still notice improvements when going below 1ps. These figures are seldomly met by normal equipment, let alone gear with price tags of 100 euro.

If you are looking for "cheap" but decent playback, look at an NAD C541 for example.

best
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Old 30th December 2010, 09:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Guido Tent View Post
DVD players have a 27 MHz master clock for video. Silicon based synthesizers derive audio clocks. These do jitter, way too much. A secondary PLL using a crystal based voltage controlled oscillator solves the problem. But it will raise the price consistently.
That is true only for el-cheapo DVD players. The ones that are serious have independent clocks and some kind of SRC/upsampling in between...
I have two Denon DVD playes that have that - DVD 2910 and 2930, and the sound is way better than my old Phillips CD player based on TDA1541 (that has the "right" clock).
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Old 30th December 2010, 09:40 PM   #10
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Default Pioneer Dv610av

The Pioneer Dv610av is an excellent player, according the German magazine Stereoplay and it plays SACD to.
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