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Old 1st January 2011, 06:14 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaetan8888 View Post
OPPO and Pioneer Elite DVD player are sounding good but cost much more.
My Oppo 980H didn't sound good until I swapped out the output op amp from TI NE5532 to LM4562. Nowadays one might find a used 980H for ~$120 and up.
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Old 1st January 2011, 06:45 PM   #32
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All of the players are plagued by cheap OpAmps. One more that others...
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Old 1st January 2011, 06:45 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by begemot61 View Post
Guido's numbers surprised me a lot. Just wonder, how 1ps jitter was measured.
We (Tentlabs, Grimmaudio) have build our own jitter analyser of which the noise floor is currently at about 10fs.

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Old 1st January 2011, 07:00 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Guido Tent View Post
We (Tentlabs, Grimmaudio) have build our own jitter analyser of which the noise floor is currently at about 10fs.

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That's amazing! Can't imagine how this is possible
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Old 1st January 2011, 07:07 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by begemot61 View Post
That's amazing! Can't imagine how this is possible
well, it aint easy but it all comes down to low noise design......
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Old 1st January 2011, 07:57 PM   #36
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I am sorry I am not closer to you Guido, to test the "dirty" FIFO in Analog Devices DSP from Denon DVD players against a "clean" clock in a stock CD player.
I am sure that ANY optical pickup assy will have a higher jitter than one resulted from a Xtal driven DSP. Mechanical, I think the jitter is inherent in those optical drives... no matter how the clock is generated, there is the drive motor PLL.
Sure, you will say that your clock makes wonders regardless, but I cannot see the advantage unless is located in some kind of reclocking mechanism (like the ones in the async DSP's).
Below is the VCO from the NAD CD 512. How is the superclock improving the PLL located in the front end of the player? The low frequency mechanical jitter will propagate thru the system all the way to the DAC, unless is some kind of buffer memory in between. An async DSP provide that buffer.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 1st January 2011 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 1st January 2011, 09:23 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
I am sure that ANY optical pickup assy will have a higher jitter than one resulted from a Xtal driven DSP. Mechanical, I think the jitter is inherent in those optical drives... no matter how the clock is generated, there is the drive motor PLL.
Definitely. Current-starved spindle motor and CD mechanism encapsulated in high density plastics is solution… tackling DAC issues only is solving ½ of a problem.

Boky
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Old 1st January 2011, 09:52 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post
Definitely. Current-starved spindle motor and CD mechanism encapsulated in high density plastics is solution… tackling DAC issues only is solving ½ of a problem.

Boky
I misunderstand something here. You getting data and then recovering the clock.
Until you having unrecoverable error, it all depends on how you are recovering this clock. It has no direct relationship to the quality of the transport. It is how your PLL is designed. Your error may be added if you are using a complicated clock generating structure, just because you may have a couple of PLL's connected in series.
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Last edited by Eugene Dvoskin; 1st January 2011 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 1st January 2011, 10:13 PM   #39
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The "recovered" clock has jitter. Directly product of the transport spindle motor. You have the correct data but it comes at the wrong time. Mecanically, the motor will have fluctuating RPM's and the PLL tries to adjust that constantly. That produces delays and advances in the recovered clock. And that low frequency jitter becomes noise in the DAC.
That's why I am advocating the DSP solution used by several manufacturers (Denon is an example based on what I have) that eliminates the incoming jitter due to use of FIFO buffer. Sure, adds the DSP jitter, but I think that is several orders under the optical pick-up one.

LE: Here is another aproach, withount use of the DSP memory, just plain 128MB of RAM:
http://esoteric.teac.com/dacs/d-70/

Last edited by SoNic_real_one; 1st January 2011 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 12:45 PM   #40
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Hi

I am new to this forum due to my quest of a good TDA1541A DAC. I am a believer that happiness can be bought by spending money very carefully.

I bought a Pioneer DV 320K in the far east (Made in Thailand). Its a thin & flimsy player. But it plays great music and video (no HDMI) in stock form. Less than US$80 in major stalls. I also bought the Pioneer DV 220K which has HDMI up sampling for video.

For the DV 320K, it uses the typical application of the Media teck MT1389EE DVD system chip. It is a VVLSI that does all the DVD control and outputs the SPDIF at pin 225. At pins 229 and 228. it needs a reference crystal of 27.000Mhz. There are many application notes and also repair manual on MT1389EE. Many cheap DVD players in the far east uses this chip.

Pin 225 goes thru series resistor and cap filter/blocking network to output to the 75ohms digital out and optical out. If you want it to play CD this is a what is needed.

I have removed the on board 27Mhz crystal and the caps/resistor oscillation circuit. I installed a dedicated small power transformer, LM317T (100ohms/300ohms divider with 10uf bypass) output at 5C dc to power a dedicated 27.000Mhz TCXO. The TCXO output goes thru two 74HC14 Schmitt trigger gates for square wave shapping; signal feeds thru an (optional) 33ohms resistor and into pin 229 directly. This new clock makes the player plays fine. Both video and audio significantly improved.

Over damping of the player can make the sound down and muffled. I found that as long as you put some weight (such as an amplifier) over the player it works like magic.

To use the DV 320k as a dedicated transport, I took the output of pin 225, goes thru two gates from another dedicated 74HC14, bypassed the resister networks, and feed straight directly into the Toshiba TORX optical out. I prefer the optical link because of the inherent limitations of using pulsed Tx. The sound from optical sounds cleaner, to my personal preference in sonic flavour.

The result is a nice sounding DVD transport that sounds great feeding a WM8805/TDA1541A NOS DAC. It is detailed and yet musical playing even the old Philips/EMI/Decca 1980 classical CDs. I had the opportunities to compare the transport to some very expensive players. I would say that the modified Pioneer is not the best, but not far behind either. For less than US$120 all in all, it does what I want. I can focus on spending time listening to music. Cheers.
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